Dear Suhas,

Retrofitting according to our parlance means removing existing raod (tar / bitumen / asphalt etc) and re-doing it with drainage cells and underground tanks. The solution provider normally offers the innovative technology on a turnkey basis wqhereby their cost includes all the digging up and refitting charges on a lump sum basis. It really is very hard to figure out how much it costs on a per square kilometre basis. Each condition of retrofitting varies and the price would therefore not be a standard rate. In some places one may need a single layer of tanks while in others double or even triple tanks may be required. Smaller lanes may do with pervious pavers / drainage cells alone with tanks on either side like swales.

But I can tell you with absolute certainty that if one ways the pros and cons and calculates the life of innovative technology roads with conventional roads, the innovative ones will win hands down price-wise. If you take into account the fact that these new types of roads are guaranteed to last for minimum period of 10 years without any repairs / pot holes whatsoever (and in the very unlikely event of such a thing happening, the promoter replaces it free of cost!), I do not think continuing to pay peanuts for monkey solutions is worth it.

On another note, regarding the existing tendering process, please remember that international companies do not care about actually getting themselves Registered with the appropriate authorities. If they are invited to quote through a formal RFQ they will participate. Otherwise they are not going to grease some palms to be get themselves graded as "A" grade or Class 1 Grade contractors. We are ultimately the losers in the name of Government spending being transparent and politicians and bureaucrats not getting a chance to be finger pointed against.

So I would suggest no purpose would be served to upgrade Government standards to include innovative technology from the world over unless the very system is changed and open invitations to quote without preconditions are floated on a global basis. If indigenous contractors' jobs require to be safeguarded, so be it. Just let us all learn to live with sub-standard roads.

Chari

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 Your statement and definition of 100% sustainable is perfect. It is Fantastic. I agree with your definition, sir.

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The existing twin KC Valley plants are treating about 250 MLD sewage water from some places in the KC valley area.

 It is known that the Lake has several other inlets (SWD) which discharge untreated sewage water into the Bellandur Lake, as reported on Praja earlier. Mr. RK Chari has suggested that the above culprit inlet water can also be treated separately before being discharged in to the lake.  This extra requirement however has to be brought to the notice of the authorities concerned.

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The above comment by Mr. Ananthram is substantially correct. The objective of every Municipality should be to recharge ground water table in the first instance. Rain also falls directly into open lakes. Given Indian public health conciousness, open lakes are more a health hazard than beauty spots unless the authorities maintain the lakes as a recreational spot. That too can be done with crystal clear water for sports purposes, but that requires a people friendly Government.

By avoiding open storm water drains, covering it with permeable pavers with a holding, yet infiltrating tank underneath, rainfall gets temporarily collected in these underground tanks on either side of an existing road. I say temporarily because the tanks come with a mechanisim which enables storm water to get absorbed to ground water table levels in a more gradual and in a disbursed manner. Consequently storm water does not have to "go anywhere".

The technology is not expensive nor it is complicated. Moreover there is no maintenance whatsoever. Additionally, Municipalities can also plan to re-do roads (at least the smaller 30 to 40 feet ones inside colonies - the various crosses and mains) with ecologically sustainable road surfaces all of which will act as absorbent surfaces when rain falls. So there will never again be water logging on these roads, no open drains and lots of additional space to grow trees, grass and other green shrubs etc.

Is this a dream? No, absolutely not. Can be easily achieved if there is public support and Government will to make life comfortable and pleasant for its citizebry. Ironically, only today the newspapers announce that the State Cabinet has sanctioned Rs. 150 crores for "tackling the storm water menace"!!

Best wishes,

R.K.Chari

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 “Several thousand miles of such ecologically sustainable roads dot the world over - even in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia.”

 Yes why cant us? I sincerely hope we in India pick the thread at least now, to have the benefit of this proven technology without wasting any more time. I believe the present Karnataka government has allocated Rs 15 Million for remodeling storm water drains. Let us Hope for some positive output at least now.  

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RK Chari,

Excellent information. Please do send the presentation to srkulhalli@yahoo.com. Will read it with patience :) and also try to incorporate in the new standards doc that we are creating !

I get what you are saying, but is there a way to adapt this solution to the existing situation. Given that most of urban roads in Bangalore have already been built, where do we go from here ? For eg: can the existing storm water drains be modified with pits underneath to sink of the water rather than expect it to flow from there.

What you suggest looks neat because it doubles up as rain water harvesting, something the city sorely needs. But we must cross the i's and the t's and make sure it works, is low cost and low on maintaenance.

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In one of the discussions I was having with BDA engineers, the topic of storm water management came up. Basically to go to lane based driving, which will enhance driving safety and pleasure for all, it is critical that the roads are pothole free. There is no point having well planned , laned roads if they are full of potholes as that would discourage drivers from driving on lanes, as their goal becomes to avoid potholes.

The primary reason for potholes is the rain water which collects on the road. Though there are storm water drains, over time they become ineffective for the following reasons

1. Garbage and especially plastic starts collecting in the channels(chutes from road to the drain) which results in blockages

2. Similarly silt fills up in the channels preventing collection

3. Shops etc cement their frontage and over the storm water drain without giving an channels(or chutes) to the storm water drain. As a result the rain water has no where to go.

Ideally BBMP should maintain periodically and there should be strict regulation. BUt a good design is one which is low on maintaineance to start with. What has been propsed seems to be at least one alternative.  Can you send any documentation on the above. As Ananth might be aware, I am in the process of putting in documentation on good road design practices/standards and this is an area where we need some good inputs

Suhas

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Dear Suhas,

In fact storm water drains and ecological road designs are like right hand and left hand of the same issue. Withought proper roads storm water drains are useless and without ecologically sustainable drains, having a user friendly road is next to impossible.

Main reason for potholes is also the impermeability of the typical asphalted roads. All over the world, everyone has gone way beyond what one finds in India. Did anyone know that there is now available, permeable bitumen? But that too needs to be laid over drainage cells so that when it rains all run offs are instantly absorbed? Because all surfaces under roads are not necessarily such that there is instant absorption, scientis have devised a method by which beneath the road surfaces they place what they call a chain of modular infiltration tanks. The idea is for rain water to percolate through permeable bitumen and drainage cells into these infiltration tanks where they get collected temporarily. Gradually the water collected in underground tanks get further infiltrated in to ground water table. This l;eaves the road surface completely free of water logging and consequent pot holes.

The trick is in designing a water infiltration tank which is modular, does the work of a partial treatment unit and is able to infiltrate not only vertically, but also horizontally. Several thousand miles of such ecologically sustainable roads dot the world over - even in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia.

I will be happy to share my experience with any or all of you with a detailed power point presentation if you have the patience and interest.

Regards,

Chari

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Hi Suhas,

Regret the presentation is too large in size. If you let me have your address I can send you a CD for your kind perusal.

Incidentally retro-fitting of roads and drains with this new innovative technology is possible. Actually in the last 40 years the innovative technology promoting ecologically sustainable roads and storm water drains have done just that all over the world.

I think the real culprit lies in our existing tendering process. Although Rs. 150 crores have been sanctioned by the State Cabinet for remodelling drains, none of the international companies can quote as they need to be : a) an approved contractor (a grade or class 1 grade!!); need to have proven their innovative technology in India (when will Indi ever be willing to look at something that is proven elsewhere?). Moreover, why would innovative technology subject itself to being compared with local traditional methods when the very concept itself is innovative? How can oranges and apples be compared ? Is not the Government presuming there are three companies offering same technology, but with different prices? Then where does new innovative technology go?

If anyone can truly beat the existing tendering process of Government Departments, I am more than willing to take up the challenge to change the very face of all cities in India.

Till then happy motoring, auto-rickshawing and walking!

Chari

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RK  Chari,

I have sent you a private message. We can figure out how to transfer the data without you having to post a CD

1. On the retrofitting - what is the rough cost per square km of road for eg:. Sounds that this is a very expensive option if we need to dig up and retar the existing road. I am unable to understand how you will retrofit it otherwise, given your solution needs permeable tar.

2. On the tendering - I think your approach is incorrect. A govt. body needs to be detailed and financially accurate in its tenders. Otherwise they will be eaten up by the media and judges alike. If you have seen a tender, they carry a lot of minute details, so that there is minimum scope of misuse by the contractor and that is the way they have to function.

The way out is to improve the standards to which the tenders are made. If there is an innovative and proven technology, that needs to creep in to the standards. That is what I am attempting here and you can definitely help.

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RK Chari,

Please check your personal message on Praja or let me know your email ID

Suhas

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 The discussions so far between you two are very valuable, for me. Mr. Suhas has been working on a comprehensive Road Specs for some time now. Mr. Chari who happened to join Praja recently by chance, has brought with him a new road technology, which is well established abroad. It is indeed a very fortunate coincidence. 

I consider it more so because our roads are the most misused facilities so crucial for a city like Bangalore at this juncture. There are no proper foot paths even in roads 100 ft wide. The storm water drains which do not function at crucial locations. In fact what SWD technology we are having is a 2000 years old! It is outdated especially when this brand new technology where the concept is not to transport storm water to separate location from where the rain falls to a faraway lake. The concept is to charge the ground water table directly at the rain fall location itself. Of course it does require a redoing of the entire road network of the city of Bangalore.

A consolidated spec for roads is a must. Otherwise there is no standard available for accepting whatever BBMP puts up to call it a road. For example there is no spec for lying under ground cables. Cables are allowed over electric poles. (This is from cost considerations). The TV cables encroach upon residential spaces by passing over balconies. In short the current scenario is maddening. 

Even the tree planting along road side for providing welcome shade and environment has no specs. These trees are mercilessly pruned by electric board now and then. I approached the electricity board for putting all electric cable under ground. I found that the costs are prohibitive. In USA the kind of locality (Indiranagar) is nothing more than a slum provided for the Mexicans.

A final doubt for which I need a clarification: Are you providing for under ground sewage pipes. The specs for the pipes (ceramic) and the design of the sewage pipe network itself needs to be standardized.

I invite you both to have a look at my personal blog. (Fig. 3 the road module)

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Suhas,

My contact details are as follows: Email: rkchari2491@gmail.com Mobile: 9886739182

I found no message in my email. Hence am sending this as part of my comment on your and Mr. Anantharam's response.

Mr. Ananthram, I have read your blog and have commented on that too in the blog itself. Hope you get to read it.

Re your doubt about providing underground sewage pipes, our tank matrix and swales etc will ensure they do not interefere with the existing sewage pipes. We also have special 100% tamper proof leach drains for sewage, but suggesting that in addition to ecological roads  would be just too much for BBMP / BWSSB to swallow (pun intended!).

Incidentally, the correct meaning of sustainability is any product that has zero or no maintenance and which functions in spite of vagaries of climate and other conditions under which they operate. All our solutions are 100% sustainable!

Regards,

Chari

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Psaram,

We have not even begun. Though I understand and agree with RK subjectively, I would like it to be supported by some numbers. As we are all engineers, we finally are convinced only when the numbers add up :) It would be good to do a dummy case study, for eg: say the Hosur road strech from Silkboard to Richmond road, what it would cost in terms of laying it in the way he proposes to the cost right now with mainteance over a ten year period. I would like to see the PPT before I comment more

I went through your blog. Some of the ideas are pretty good. You call it modular roads, I call it road design templates/type designs, we are driving at something very similar. I think I need to sit across to understand some of the figures better. Send me your contact details and we can see when we can meet

BTW, I find your blog too descriptive//abstrack  to start with - I am kind of person who likes to get to the point quickly :). But you do come down to practical suggestions later on.

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 I agree with you srkulhalli sir. It is very true we have not yet begun. I also see you as a person who believes in perfection to the hilt. I admire the firm beliefs which you have. As per my expectation I am not surprised that you want a pilot study to evaluate the claims made by Mr. Chari sir.

 However I am more comfortable with the proposal of Mr. Chary viz visiting the place where the concept is already put to practice. Let us start by listening to mr. Chari’s presentation. We request Mr. Chary to put up an event please.

srk you can mail me at psaram42@gmail.com

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Dear Mr. Ananthram / Mr. Suhas,

As mentioned in another comment I made just now to Ms Usha Kiran's comment, I am somewhat tied up with a series of Board meetings and am also scheduled to travel outside Bangalore for a few days. Could an event for my presentation be scheduled for anyday after the 10th of July please?

Frankly I dont know how to go about scheduling such events. Can either of you take up the initiative? I will come wherever you folks want me to - venue, time and place.

Regards,

Chari

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Maybe we can meet Thursday, 16th July, 5:00pm at RK's office (I dont expect more than 5-6 folks, so it should be OK, I think)

If others confirm, I will push this to an event

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