Here is the list of roads to be widened

Here is another list

From the list I picked a couple of notified roads to see what purpose they would serve, Dinnur main road & Bagalur road towards BIA

Shops were razed a while ago to widen tannery road where dinnur main road connects. The advantage of Dinnur main road connecting to ORR/Hennur road is the access to the Commuter rail line passing through it. The station can be built below the Tannery road bridge across the train line. If connected properly this can take a load off Bellary road and provide an approach to North & East Bangalore via ORR and also connects to the airport corridor. Right now people have to come to Bellary road to go to ORR west or head to Jayamahal into the city. Beyond KB sandra you have only very narrow roads where cars get stuck after a while. 

Dinnur main cuts through some very populated areas and has good bus traffic. It is a PT catchment area. It can currently carry 2 lanes(one each way) but can get jammed if somebody parks on the road. It is lined by kirana stores, bakeries etc whose catchment is the immediate neighborhood. It can be considered to be an arterial road.

The list proposes 24 meters for Dinnur main road. It is a residential area and needs footpaths. It carries buses to KBsandra and beyond so will need bus stops & bus bays. So the ideal break up for 24 meters should be

 4 Lanes +1 turn lane, Trees+Parking lane+Bus bays, Paved pedestrian Sidewalk (with utilities+SWD underneath)

There is however a problem in widening the roads as it exists today as they are too curvy to be of any good. Geometric straighting should be done in many places if it has to be of any use.

This area will appreciate a properly done infrastructure, they have been given a raw deal for ages. I am sure BBMP will give them 6 lanes with asphalt end to end with no sidewalk.

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First of all, I would offer my compliments to Save Bangalore Convention organisers for doing something more than what typical bloggers do - organise the citizens on a matter that concerns us and the future of our city! I have not come across any such attempt on a scale that covers the entire city on this issue of road widening by any individual or group in the past. I do know about ABIDe and such other groups that work with the establishment and conduct public interaction but there is none that is by the people, for the people and of the people - in a true democratic spirit!

While one may agree with some of their demands and perhaps, disgree on the others, I think, the attachment does capture the most improtant questions on public mind on this issue of road widening. I think, the group has caught the crux of the problem, which is 'for whom are all these developmental works meant for?' and all their argument revolves around doing things for the public and NOT for bureaucrats, politicians or contarctors which is the trend today.

Secondly, I did not find any data points that can be called ill-informed. In fact, my goolging provided me the information in more or less same lines!

Thirdly, I don't think they need to 'quantify' the number of buses, frequency of buses etc.. being a citizens' group but have raised the right point that public transport should have reliability, comprehensive connectivity, optimal frequency and affordability and that will be an effective check against increasing traffic density. Let town-planners and architects of repute and integrity do that job but under public supervision namely government, civis agencies and most importantly, vigilant citizens and citizen forums.

Apart from public transport, even measures like green lanes or road congestion tax for large private vehicles need to be considered.

Overall, all the best to their convention and I - for one - would definitely participate!

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If public transport service is improved, it naturally results in lesser vehicle density. What measures are taken to meeting this growing demand?

BMTC cannot cope up with the needs, however much they may appear to have become efficient, which they are not and cannot be, as long as they continue to enjoy a monopoly status - check this, and this

Scrap TDRs immediately

Instead, perhaps pursue this

Stop awarding projects to private contractors and builders. Government and civic agencies should take up all infrastructure development activities

The only arm of the government that undertakes work on its own is the PWD, and entrusting anything to them will be like inviting disaster - check this. What is required is engaging of reputed designers and contractors

Take measures to prevent vertical growth in the central parts of the city

Densification is an accepted norm in large and growing cities, and it has its advantages.

While on the subject, check this out also

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 If public transport service is improved,

What is "improved"? Pl quantify/qualify. There are useless routes all running on main roads not touching the inside layouts. How do these help?

Stop awarding projects to private contractors and builders. Government and civic agencies should take up all infrastructure development activities

Why? So the protests against bad infrastructure can be a permanant feature in Bangalore? Instead insist on quality contractors and remove the lowest quote rule. If you want good facilities you cant pay peanuts or line the pockets. Fix the problem not the symptom.

Take measures to prevent vertical growth in the central parts of the city

Why? How does this save Bangalore? Monitoring the quality of vertical growth is important. Density needs to be retained around Public transport corridors. There is a needs to evaluate each project carefully and ask for features from the builder which will assist in making the densification fruitful and beneficial.

This attachment has too much generic ill-informed gyan passing off as pro development. Cannot be taken seriously. However I support their demand to get more information on the reasons and rationale for the set of roads chosen for road widening. We need to understand and help connect to how it fits into the overall scheme of things (if there is one), have alternates been considered? How those alternates can be realized. 

Commuter rail plug coming up

Ensuring availability of frequent train based mass transit to neighbouring cities is important to spread the density. Combined with proper zoning in these neighbouring growth centers it will help make housing affordable

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Three things which will widen the existing roads

Public Transport

Lane Discipline: State Government should hire more Police to enforce traffic regulations on these roads which are planned for widening.

Foot path

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Save Bangalore concept is good one and need to be pushed further.

As IDS has mentioned, Public Transport need to be improved with multiple options like BMTC / METRO / Local Trains ( Commuter Rail ).  Charge heavily  for parking  on major roads say Rs 40/- per Hrs as done in Mumbi.

Save Bangalore should voice for the Local Trains / Commuter Train and should demand the MPs and MLA's to  get the Local Trains along with METRO. Then their is no need for the Road Widening. Local Train issue is  dragging for two Decades and always importance is given to Road widening.

Hope tomorrow, they raise the issue of Local Trains. All the best for the convention.

Sanjeev

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 I don't think they need to 'quantify' the number of buses, frequency of buses etc..

Why not? I say public transport is the best and I will not provide you any information to support that.

 but have raised the right point that public transport should have reliability, comprehensive connectivity, optimal frequency and affordability

You got all that from the word "improve"?

 I did not find any data points that can be called ill-informed. In fact, my goolging provided me the information in more or less same lines!

What lines? The lines that say dont award contracts to contractors? Dont grow vertical buildings in Bangalore? You got that from well informed sources? I would like to know these "well-informed" sources

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I did attend the convention on 4 July. It was perhaps the biggest gathering of citizens I have seen on this issue in the city. The ensemble of the speakers included a former judge, a writer, a town planner, a former chief engineer of BBMP, an ecology expert, a theatre artist, two (quite seasoned) organisers of civic movements and a nanogenarian freedom fighter. As far as I know, the coverage in the press is quite extensive with most newspapers that I've seen have carried both a feature and a photo of the event.

BBMP has called a special council meeting to discuss specifically on the issue of road widening in the wake of this and other protests. Check this and this. Good to see some citizens are actually stepping out of their homes and blogsites and looks like there are some positive effects :-)

Regarding a couple of points from IDS above:

 << I don't think they need to 'quantify' the number of buses, frequency of buses etc..

Why not? I say public transport is the best and I will not provide you any information to support that.>>

I agree 'quantification' is a must. My point is this: a citizens' group can always raise a demand to increase the number/frequency of buses from the viewpoint of a citizen (there is adequate information available to justify this point and transport minister himslef has said 3000 buses would be added to BMTC/KSRTC to augment the fleet). But the actual numbers/route map/frequency have to be worked out by town planners or city architects.

In fact, I gather at the 4 July convention that a technical experts' sub committee with a town planner, former chief engieer and an enviornmentalist will be constituted by the group to look into such technical details.   

<< but have raised the right point that public transport should have reliability, comprehensive connectivity, optimal frequency and affordability

You got all that from the word "improve"? >>

No. It's ALL there in the attachment.  

<< I did not find any data points that can be called ill-informed. In fact, my goolging provided me the information in more or less same lines!

What lines? The lines that say dont award contracts to contractors? Dont grow vertical buildings in Bangalore? You got that from well informed sources? I would like to know these "well-informed" sources >>

Let us please differentiate demands from data points. Perhaps, you're talking about demands but my googling was on data points. I've already said the demands - which are created by this citizens' group - may be acceptable or not. For e.g., I too agree and have said that reputed architects need to be involved and not kept away. But my submission is that (a) we, as citizens, have to be alert no matter who does the job and (b) the government or the concerned civic agency can not simply award the projects and wash off their hands but need to oversee them.

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We all need to understand that signal free corridors inside the city are never going to be possible with these incremental things. When you meet some prominent babus in private, they say that they do understand this, but what they implement desn't suggest that they do. Really, who is behind all this, BBMP babus/technocrats, or MLAs/ministers?

• Converting long standing highways inside the city area into real signal free corridors is a mythical chase.
• Except for Outer Ring Road (most part of it) which is a "new" road, all big radial corridors are business roads for long time now, and have lot of activity rooted along the "ribbon", "tributaries", and pedestrians.
• You can't change long rooted "ribbon" (adjoining the proposed signal free corridors) usage patterns by just removing signals and making flyovers at few junctions or tributaries.
• Foget widening and all (and the tree cutin and pavement eating projects) to attack the ribbon. Only possible way perhaps is to put up fences to keep road area separate from the ribbon. Can anyone do that today? Heck, closing medians at tributaries here and there itself draws so much protest.
• Perhaps the only realistic way is to change the usage pattern of the "ribbon" along the target corridors by relocating businesses elsewhere. And that we know is also a very hard task, much harder in the CBD today.

Conclusion: Usage pattern of ribbon area is what makes it hard to make signal free corridors. Flyovers and widening CAN NOT alter that.

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So where is the list of roads? Lets look at some which we are familiar with and explore options. We may need to overlay them on a map to see what is being talked about

The problems with the so called for the people by the people etc is they propose no alternate solutions. To them stopping everything and staying still supposedly the solution.

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 Conclusion: Usage pattern of ribbon area is what makes it hard to make signal free corridors. Flyovers and widening CAN NOT alter that.

Spot on. I have noticed in other places where the street access was fenced the entries to the businesses was from a parallel road accessible thru an exit from the corridor. 

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@idontspam

The problems with the so called for the people by the people etc is they propose no alternate solutions. To them stopping everything and staying still supposedly the solution.

I added a post with the alternatives suggested by critics here: http://praja.in/en/blog/pdk/2010/07/14/alternatives-road-widening

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@idontspam,

This is regarding the Dinnur Main Road widening which you took as an example above. I'm not sure if you are saying Dinnur main road should be widened. If you aren't, then please ignore the rest of this response. If yes, I was thinking about it and a few things struck me.  
 

1. Why does the load need to be taken off Bellary road? Hasn't this road been widened beyond recognition. As such it should be able to take the traffic.
2. Access to commuter rail. Why can't such access be provided through the public transport system, since it has 'good bus traffic'?
3. You mention that Dinnur main road area is a good catchment area for public transport. So the people are doing something right. Why should they be penalized to provide access to some other area for people coming on private vehicles from some other areas?
4. Dinnur main road is lined by kirana stores, bakeries etc as you mention. In fact I would call it a thriving area with neighbourhood shops conveniently located for the residents living there. Why destroy that?
5. Parking leads to jams as you mentioned - wouldn't banning parking (I noticed very little parking the few times I went there) help with this problem? The people can be consulted and asked to see how they want to go about it - explain the pros/cons.
6. The road is narrow - wouldn't smaller buses (which BMTC is already using in some routes in Bangalore) be a good idea? Or maybe one of our domestic CV manufacturers could come up with a good design for our narrow roads.
7. Finally, wouldn't a better service by BMTC in terms of routes, reliability, and frequency be a better approach?

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Why does the load need to be taken off Bellary road? Hasn't this road been widened beyond recognition. As such it should be able to take the traffic.

Dinnur main road is a lifeline for the people living in that area as it carries bus traffic. There arent many roads which are wider than 40 ft., bus traffic shares the same 30 ft dinnur road that rest of the traffic shares and causes backups and messy grid locks when some idiot tries to overtake.

Access to commuter rail. Why can't such access be provided through the public transport system, since it has 'good bus traffic'?

Bus connectivity already exists. Priority train connectivity will ease the burden off the roads as trains take more people and is a true mass transit. There is a train line passing right thru some of the most congested areas in nagwara and sultanpalya. Bus is good as a feeder and as last mile as tin this case he train can cover a lot of the areas where bus cant go.

You mention that Dinnur main road area is a good catchment area for public transport. So the people are doing something right. Why should they be penalized to provide access to some other area for people coming on private vehicles from some other areas?

What other areas? There isnt a single road which is bigger than 40 ft. These roads were a planners mistake, we continue to penalize them by making them live in 20 to 40 ft wide roads. There isnt enough space on dinnur main road to have pedestrians, bus & private transport. 2 of them need to go. Only one can be accomodated without widening. You pick which two

Dinnur main road is lined by kirana stores, bakeries etc as you mention. In fact I would call it a thriving area with neighbourhood shops conveniently located for the residents living there. Why destroy that?

These kirana stores cant have access to a wider segment of population because there arent any bus stops on this narrow road. Every time a bus stops it puts the entire traffic out of whack. This means they get lesser people and hence are actually losing business. If you instead gave them shops along the same road after widening and provided bus stops, they will thrive. 

Parking leads to jams as you mentioned - wouldn't banning parking (I noticed very little parking the few times I went there) help with this problem? The people can be consulted and asked to see how they want to go about it - explain the pros/cons.

The side streets are very narrow, it cant take parking or you will end up clogging the side streets., the stores on the road need people to come and buy stuff. So provide parking all along on the widened road. Single multilevel parking complexes will not help in ribbon development situations it will only end up destroying more properties.

The road is narrow - wouldn't smaller buses (which BMTC is already using in some routes in Bangalore) be a good idea? Or maybe one of our domestic CV manufacturers could come up with a good design for our narrow roads.

Yes and a good design is to not build 20 ft & 30 ft roads, basics of planning call for pedestrian walking space, space for greenery and two clean lane of asphalt with bus bays & parking bays. How hard can this be? Its not rocket science its there is IRC handbooks. We need to correct this anamoly but BBMP cant do it come what my because they dont understand these things. They will only want 15 lanes of end to end asphalt.

Finally, wouldn't a better service by BMTC in terms of routes, reliability, and frequency be a better approach?

No there is already bus service but its painful on the narrow roads. You cant keep throwing buses at people hoping it will solve things. Its not panacea, you need multiple modes.

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For once can we get BBMP, BTP and BMTC together on a common platform to discuss the problems of the city?

Time and again, we have noticed how each department acts on its own without any co-ordination with other departments. And when they try to do something nobody knows how they go about it. Do they follow the laid down procedures? Is there any authority which oversees the work? If the work is not satisfactory can a citizen complain/suggest and somebody acts on it?

The PIL by HU and others against road widening was shot down by the court in 2008. And now the govt has decided to go ahead with road widening despite opposition to TDR.

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