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Lalu Wants Monorail for Patna !
Naveen - 23 May, 2008 | Bangalore | public transport | Metro Rail
Kuala Lumpur: A trip in the monorail and zipping over the crowded streets here on elevated tracks has convinced visiting Railway Minister Lalu Prasad that India, especially, the capital of his home state Bihar, needs such an advanced transportation facility.
"Patna is the best place for monorail," he told a press conference here on Friday.
I have chosen Patna because of its congested roads, Lalu, who is on a three-day visit to Malaysia, said.
The minister said he had already asked Indian company IRCON to get all details about the monorail system from its Malaysian manufacturers Scomi.
An IRCON official added that though monorail was part of the urban transport system which came under various state governments, the minister had taken initiative on his own choosing Patna as one of the cities for it.
"I am impressed with the monorail. It can be emulated in India and we will soon initiate discussions with Malaysia," Lalu said after witnessing the signing of the USD one billion contract between IRCON and the Malaysian government to build double tracking system between the Seremban-Gemas sectors.
Scomi, which is currently testing its new generation coaches, had a brief power-point presentation for the minister and his high level delegation on Thursday.
The company, which is partly owned by Malaysian premier Abdullah Badawi's son Kamaluddin, is already bidding for a project to set up monorail in Mumbai.
Group Ceo of Scomi Shah Hakim Zain said each new generation car would be able to carry 125 passengers and each train would have four to six cars.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200805161968.htm
COMMENTS
mono rail in Blr?
narayan82 - 24 May, 2008 - 04:34
What happened to the feeder Mono Rail service complementing the Metro? This seemed to be perfect as it costs considerably less than the Metro is a much quicker solution The black line in the Metro map I understand is the Mono rail. Is this going to be taken up after Metro?
laaloo right on the aaloo
tsubba - 24 May, 2008 - 04:45
awesome that laaloo is on the mono track. if he manages to come up with standardized nation wide standards for mono primarily track width, i will worship him for as long as i live and vote his RJDS for as long as i live. indian national standards for monorails. i want him to get hos babus on that before anything else. if these standards are in place, bmtc will have to re-invent itself. just imagine the possibilities. its basically the same thing. you still are burning rubber against concrete, but if you can do it so as to save the essential character of bangalore, and do it at a larger capacity, then nothing like it. but first make it totally indian. standardize and see if technology transfer is possible.
Indian LRT..
blrsri - 25 May, 2008 - 02:15
Its debatable if standard 'components' from various vendors or single vendor is better..but what if..lets leave the monorail thought for now and look at LRT..
We have..
BHEL for locos
BEML for coaches
and technically we do not need a Bombardier to build the rolling stock..we have for example the wheel and axle plant rt here in Blr..so putting this all together should not be too difficult!
Lets get one LRT from Bombardier and get them to transfer technology(like we do with the MIG's/Sukhoi's) and build LRT on our own!
standards are a good thing sri. they ensure sustainability. what happens if our favourite vendor goes belly up? IT guru taavu, no need to for me to rant off on standards, eco-systems etc etc.
He is going to steal our taxes
mcadambi - 24 May, 2008 - 12:18
This corrupt man is going to steal more of our taxes for his pet projects. Patna cannot even have good roads - let alone good monorail:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Jayant_Patil_questions_Centre_on_funds_allocation/articleshow/3040971.cms
Railway and taxes, LRT standards.
silkboard - 25 May, 2008 - 02:01
Cadambi, at least as far as last few years are concerned, Railways have not been eating taxes, but been putting money in the exchequer via some profits. And please talk about Patna only if you have been there in person recently to see the roads. Its not how the newspapers make it out to be, certainly not been the case for last 2 years or so.(Yes, I was there last year)
Not trying to aggressive on you (I am sure many share the theme of Lalu/Bihar etc, and you yourself post many nice things elsewhere). But we are here for fact based and constructive talk on LRT, and not to talk Lalu like mainstream media.
That takes me to Tarle's comment, and the real reason why Naveen posted this in the first place on this Bangalore forum. If Lalu can drive standards for Monorail or LRT (a gauge length, rolling stock specifications, speed limits, minimum curve radius), prepare a list of certified suppliers, that could be just be huge for urban transportation space.
Having met a few policy makers by now, one thing many of them say is that for things to happen and move fast on ground, all it takes is backing of a neta, whoever he might be. [I am no bhakt of Lalu as such, here, a 2 year old post for proof]
Folks who are feeling lost in this discussion need to understand that one reason many of us push BRTS (Bus rapid Transport) is - it uses a lot standard "components" (like a regular bus, a regular road) that keeps the cost down. Monorial, LRT systems tend to use proprietary componets - you could get tied in to the vendor/developer as tracks, driving system, coaches, signaling systems etc may all be defined (and supplied) by the vendor.
Monorail Standards May be Difficult
Naveen - 25 May, 2008 - 04:38
TS, SB & Blrsri - good discussions & ideas.
My take is as follows :
Standards are possible only when there is much wider acceptance of the product & it sells in volumes, justifiable to have specifications & create a union for makers.
I dont think Monorail or Maglev will ever qualify under these. In 150 years, the idea of a single track to guide light rail coaches overhead has'nt seen much success & Monorail makers are still struggling for buisness, whilst their product has mostly been confined to zoos & amusement parks - where they belong !
The no. of Monorail systems for actual urban transport use are barely 15, whilst all the rest are for private use such as disney, where revenues are no problem & building costs are recoverable.
I dont beleive that Mono or Maglev is a good idea at all - recently, Krupp & Siemens had announced that they were pulling out of the joint-venture with Transrapid Maglev (builders of Shanghai Maglev). All these are indications that the technology is generally too expensive & might not make too much headway. The KL Mono has also been taken over by banks due to defaults in repayment. The story is the same with cancellations at Djakarta, Penang, Munich, etc.
Only in Japan, has monorail been successful for urban use (Osaka is said to be making profits !).
City transport is purely a volumes game as opposed to expensive, fancy rides & in this, Metro scores high as it can take so many more people, making the ride cheaper.
So, if Laloo the aaloo :) wants it, it might burden his railways with heavy subsidies & heavy costs for maintenance, for sure.
Actually, I meant LRT
silkboard - 25 May, 2008 - 05:13
One clarification. More than monorail, I meant LRT - standards driven LRT solution for urban areas.
How is LRT from feasibility perspective wrt Monorail? Relatively speaking, standards will be tough to push for Monorail when compared to LRT.
As I see it (in context of our cities), LRT has two disadvantages over BRT
- Turning radius - can't take 90 degree turn to run along radius
- Buses can get out of dedicated lanes, and run in mixed-mode as well
- Expensive rolling stock (one reason is proprietary nature)
Advantages over BRT. Nothing stands out, but these would be the 'candidates'
- Running cost (efficient as they run over rails)
- Large throughput per run
- Non-fossil fuel based (electricity). As of today, buses will still run on diesel.
Monorail's only real advantage over BRT/LRT is low footprint on ground. And even that fact too has been debated a lot.
but lrt is nothing more than what metros in india. lets not het too convoluted with technology. a low foot print techonolgy that is standardized. some thing like that can revolutionize public transit in india.
LRT is comparable in capacity to BRT..no doubt about that..the advantage I see with LRT is...
Its further more organized in movement at grade than the BRT
Cost is comparable to BRT
It can go up on stilts or go underground
It runs on electricity and not diesel/biofuels which reduces pollution and reduces India's dependency on imported oil
LRT would Cost Much more than BRT
Naveen - 25 May, 2008 - 15:21
Blrsri,
How can LRT be better organized at grade than BRT ? If LRT is built at grade, tracks will have to be built on the roads & movement of trains will conflict with other road traffic, unless seperate corridors are built for train movements. If it runs at grade, there will be conflict points at intersections making the whole experiment cumbersome to plan as there will be minimum turning radius for trains. There are LRTs running without conflicts on roads at many places abroad like Antwerp, etc., but traffic there is much lesser & better disciplined.
If LRT is to be considered, it has to be elevated throughout as boring tunnels at intersections for free movement without conflicts (with long lengths for entry & exit ramps) is ruled out due to very high costs. Costs for tracks, coaches, signal gear & power cabling makes it very expensive.
BRT is much cheaper as it does not need any rails or coaches & a simple underpass is enough to take care at conflict points. Buses are also much cheaper & manoeverable than rail-based systems & different classes of buses can be included or removed much more easily & expeditiously than with rail systems.
However, pollution wise, emissions from buses would be higher than emissions from power plants that supply electricity for rail coaches, as SB has stated.
For Bangalore, I dont think at grade LRT will be faesible. It will have to be elevated within the city & can perhaps be planned at grade only on ORR or other widers roads such as OMR, Hosur rd, New airport rd (Bellary road) or Tumkur rd, but even here, much sturdier underpasses will be required at intersections due to heavier load of rail.
Compared over long turn
silkboard - 25 May, 2008 - 15:50
Consider two facts about LRT. Width required for LRT is less than that for BRT. That is because LRT has fixed width, and you can be precise. Couple this with the fact that LRT will have higher capacity, single driver and automated signals (as its a guided system) can carry two to three times the passengers per run.
When building tunnels, the fact that it is a "guided" system, saves you costs (less width, less damage over time as buses will brush walls)
Comfort is another advantage of LRT (traisn are smoother than buses). Safety would be another plus, as trains are percevied to be safer than buses.
All I am saying is, LRT might be worth a look, provided standards help lower the cost. It deserves a serious look.
murali's idea on tv?
tsubba - 25 May, 2008 - 16:21
just managed to catch the trailing parts of a ndtv show. usual suspects ramanathan, belawadi and shaw. but i heard them discussing privatizing public transport. i though i heard them say that is what rao is saying. anybody else catch this? what where they talking? dhananjaya kumar was there i think. net connection messed up at the right time.
LRT experiment
blrsri - 25 May, 2008 - 17:01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PqTQDy8tsw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JFLdh31y3A&feature=related
Dublin LRT is one of the most profitable..the take away is from the fact that they have narrow roads like we have in blr and run LRT on it!
The speciality is that at some signals the LRT manages the lights as they approach the junction..that is they always have the right of way..which is pretty cool!
About pollution from power plants..they are controlled environments and at one point..this was also expressed from the discussion on using Hybrid cars..as they say max fuel is spent idling/slowing down a vehicle than actually running it!
plus they will save the green bucks from flowing out..remember we were cruising at 39 predicting 36 and the oil prices got it to 43 today and the inflation blown over the top!
They will be the best option to act as feeders to the metro..hope we can pilot one route and check if its feasible!
We in blr pioneerd the airport express that GOI is now talking about..maybe we can do this too! http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/May252008/national2008052569965.asp?section=updatenews
LRT /Monorail as Feeder
Naveen - 25 May, 2008 - 18:33
In the CTTP report, LRT or Monorail has been recommended as feeder routes for Metro on 4 routes :
1) Hebbal to JP Nagar (Bannerghatta Road) along the western portion of ORR;
2) PRR to Toll Gate along Magadi Road;
3) Kathriguppe Road /Ring Road Jn to National College;
4) Hosur Road - Bannerghatta Road Jn to PRR along Bannerghatta Road.
(Total 60.0 km)
It has not been specifically stated, but I beleive all of these routes were recommended with the idea that they would be elevated. It will be quite difficult to run them at road level, particularly on route nos. 2, 3 & 4. Even on ORR (route-1), there are many areas where road width is insufficient (hence the choice for elevated LRT/Mono. BRT has been recommended for the eastern half of ORR as road widths are sufficient).
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