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Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's on liberalism - gone too far?
mayank - 5 February, 2009 | Democracy | Mangalore | Analysis | violence | Language and Culture
"On the other hand, destructive and irresponsible freedom has been granted boundless space. Society has turned out to have scarce defense against the abyss of human decadence, for example against the misuse of liberty for moral violence against young people, such as motion pictures full of pornography, crime, and horror. This is all considered to be part of freedom and to be counterbalanced, in theory, by the young people’s right not to look and not to accept. Life organized legalistically has thus shown its inability to defend itself against the corrosion of evil.” ”And what shall we say about the dark realms of overt criminality? Legal limits (especially in the United States) are broad enough to encourage not only individual freedom but also some misuse of such freedom. The culprit can go unpunished or obtain undeserved leniency —- all with the support of thousands of defenders in the society. When a government earnestly undertakes to root out terrorism, public opinion immediately accuses it of violating the terrorist’s civil rights. There is quite a number of such cases.”
”Without any censorship in the West, fashionable trends of thought and ideas are fastidiously separated from those that are not fashionable, and the latter, without ever being forbidden have little chance of finding their way into periodicals or books or being heard in colleges. Your scholars are free in the legal sense, but they are hemmed in by the idols of the prevailing fad. There is no open violence, as in the East; however, a selection dictated by fashion and the need to accommodate mass standards frequently prevents the most independent-minded persons from contributing to public life and gives rise to dangerous herd instincts that block dangerous herd development.
"In America, I have received letters from highly intelligent persons —- maybe a teacher in a faraway small college who could do much for the renewal and salvation of his country, but the country cannot hear him because the media will not provide him with a forum. This gives birth to strong mass prejudices, to a blindness which is perilous in our dynamic era. An example is the self-deluding interpretation of the state of affairs in the contemporary world that functions as a sort of petrified armor around people’s minds, to such a degree that human voices from seventeen countries of Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia cannot pierce it. It will be broken only by the inexorable crowbar of events.”
”How has this unfavorable relation of forces come about? How did the West decline from its triumphal march to its present debility? Have there been fatal turns and losses of direction in its development? It does not seem so. The West kept advancing steadily in accordance with its proclaimed social intentions, hand in hand with a dazzling progress in technology. And all of a sudden it found itself in its present state of weakness. This means that the mistake must be at the root, at the very foundation of thought in modern times. I refer to the prevailing Western view of the world in modern times. I refer to the prevailing Western view of the world which was born in the Renaissance and has found political expression since the Age of Enlightenment. It became the basis for political and social doctrine and could be called rationalistic humanism or humanistic autonomy: the pro-claimed and practiced autonomy of man from any higher force above him. It could also be called anthropocentricity, with man seen as the center of all. The turn introduced by the Renaissance was probably inevitable historically: the Middle Ages had come to a natural end by exhaustion, having become an intolerable despotic repression of man’s physical nature in favor of the spiritual one. But then we recoiled from the spirit and embraced all that is material, excessively and incommensurately. The humanistic way of thinking, which had proclaimed itself our guide, did not admit the existence of intrinsic evil in man, nor did it see any task higher than the attainment of happiness on earth. It started modern Western civilization on the dangerous trend of worshiping man and his material needs. Everything beyond physical well-being and the accumulation of material goods, all other human requirements and characteristics of a subtle and higher nature, were left outside the area of attention of state and social systems, as if human life did not have any higher meaning. Thus gaps were left open for evil, and its drafts blow freely today. Mere freedom per se does not in the least solve all the problems of human life and even adds a number of new ones. And yet in early democracies, as in American democracy at the time of its birth, all individual human rights were granted on the ground that man is God’s creature. That is, freedom was given to the individual conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility. Such was the heritage of the preceding one thousand years. Two hundred or even fifty years ago, it would have seemed quite impossible, in America, that an individual be granted boundless freedom with no purpose, simply for the satisfaction of his whims. Subsequently, however, all such limitations were eroded everywhere in the West; a total emancipation occurred from the moral heritage of Christian centuries with their great reserves of mercy and sacrifice. State systems were becoming ever more materialistic.
"The West has finally achieved the rights of man, and even excess, but man’s sense of responsibility to God and society has grown dimmer and dimmer. In the past decades, the legalistic selfishness of the Western approach to the world has reached its peak and the world has found itself in a harsh spiritual crisis and a political impasse. All the celebrated technological achievements of progress, including the conquest of outer space, do not redeem the twentieth century’s moral poverty, which no one could have imagined even as late as the nineteenth century.”
COMMENTS
You ask: "How do you assume that I don't protest arracks, liquor barons creating hell for villagers?"
I was expecting you to say this, in fact I was almost 100% sure. When you assume that I, or people with a liberal outlook in general, do not protest X, Y or Z, even I can assume that you do not protest the stuff which I have mentioned. This tiresome game of "Hey, why are you not protesting THAT, why only THIS" can be played by two.
Mayank, you're the one going by "Spicy media reports". It is plain that you know absolutely nothing about the reality of life in a village in India, even today. There are about 1200 million people in India, out of whom 750 million stay in villages. You are certainly not aware of how deeply entrenched notions of caste, women inferiority, etc. are. Urban slums contain 200 million people more. There are SCORES of MILLIONS of cases of brutality and domestic violence in India. You are simply unaware of the immense progress we still need to make in social terms. But hey, maybe this is a good thing from your point of view - we are still a very very long way off from becoming "liberalized", you can rejoice in the fact that it will take decades for several hundred million people to even realize that there is actually a life of the "liberal kind".
One more kind of question I hear often, is this one: "What are you doing to stop this if you protest it, why do you simply type, why don't you do somthing?"
You have asked me a question on those lines here, very much as expected. Well, I could again turn the question around like I did in my above post. But instead of answering a question with another question, I will tell you just one thing: if each one does his own tasks well, India will be a developed nation. I see idiots breaking the signal daily, I don't go up to them and pick a fight with each one. I see fools throwing garbage out of their cars daily, I don't go around trying to slap them. I do no such thing myself, and try to ensure that no one in my family does. And I would chide and argue with a friend who does. Everyone cannot be a policeman or a social activist. This simple point is something that people do not understand, and put forth questions like: "Why are YOU not DOING something about the problem".
Most of these people who pontificate about "Indian Culture" and the "moral fabric of society" (whatever that means) have never been to a pub in their lives and think it is some den of vices, and start bringing in drugs, adultery, teenage pregnancy, and every other conceivable crap into the discussion . Bangalore has had pubs for 150 years now. In the Bangalore of the 1990s, there was a healthy and vibrant pub culture in Bangalore, the "Pub City". No one had any problems then.
I suggest you come with me to a pub one day, and try a light beer. At the very least, you will then have a basis (can I call it authority) to write your posts.
And a tip: In future, try using the 'Rich Text Editor' to type in comments (you can see the link just below the comments box). You can put in newlines and separate paragraphs and your posts will be much more readable.
Please break up into paras
s_yajaman - 6 February, 2009 - 02:53
Mayank,
Please break that up into paragraphs to enable us to read it.
Srivathsa
I hope educated people would not get carried away by pseudo-intellectual and ultra-liberal thoughts that the individualistic and selfish present day west professes. The west itself has declined from it past glory to modern day moral bankruptcy.
I hope educated people would not get carried away by ideas of preservation of cultural heritage through irrational rejection of all things Western as 'Moral Bankruptcy'. I hope educated people try to emulate the West in terms of discipline, strength of character, cleanliness, honesty and non-hypocrisy, to name a few. I hope educated people do not fall into the trap which says that our culture is sooo superior that anything Indian is automatically much better than the West, and instead gain some measure of discretion and honesty which enables them to see what is good within us and what is bad and inexcusable.
Ongoing battle
s_yajaman - 6 February, 2009 - 10:22
There is saying in Buddhism - "To each man is given the keys to the gates of heaven, the same keys open the gates to hell".
The problem is not with freedom or democracy or alcohol. If we want to we can use it sensibly or abuse it. The problem is with us. it's like blaming a car for accidents.
World over this is an ongoing battle between conservatives and liberals.
Srivathsa
Vinay, Educated people today
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 10:39
Vinay, Educated people today are not brought to respect their own nation and culture. I never said that there is no lanuna in India. But I don't agree with you that whatever comes from the west is sacred. I understand your problem and limitations. However, the argument is more about liberalism and what it ultimately leads to. Only time will teach a lesson to society and as things get worse, society would do the correction. Its the wheel of time, probably, I am a bit early for that. I posted the comments of the Nobel prize winner just to make you guys understand the concept of liberalism and how its gone wrong in the west. If you still disagree, I cannot help you.
Its like saying that the
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 10:46
Its like saying that the problem is not with drugs, alcohol, promiscuous living etc. rather, it is with people. I disagree. Time and experience are the greatest teachers. When imagination and anticipation betray us, we have to wait for the ultimate teachers to teach us things the hard way.
A Question To All.
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 10:54
Those who support liberalism and the concept of pubbing and drinking need to answer these questions: 1.Would you support the ban on lotteries? [Most states have banned it.]Why are the liberals keeping quiet about it? They should protest. 2.Would you support the movement against arrack? Would you support the movement against the liquor industry? 3.There is a ban on homosexuality in most parts of the world. In India, it is illegal too. Why are the liberals not protesting about it? If two individuals are willing to have a sexual relationship, why should the state interfere?
Mayank, I have seen enough "questions" of this kind
Vinay - 6 February, 2009 - 12:58
And somehow, almost every question is along the lines of: "Why are you not protesting THAT, why only THIS?" Instead of addressing the arguments being put forward, it is a common technique used by many to obfuscate the issue by posing counter questions.
But coming to the point, here are the answers to your questions, which you say, I <I>need</I> to answer:
1.Would you support the ban on lotteries?
NO, I do not support the ban.
2.Would you support the movement against arrack? Would you support the movement against the liquor industry?
That's two different questions. I support the movement against arrack, but NOT against the liquor industry. If you cannot guess why, please check out what makes arrack, 'tharra', 'desi' or 'sarai' different from other liquors.
3.There is a ban on homosexuality in most parts of the world. In India, it is illegal too.
I say, legalize homosexuality.
Your other co-questions on the lines of "Why are the liberals not protesting..." do not merit an answer. Certain adjectives can be applied to this kind of question, but since the people at Praja have lots of guidelines, I will desist from publishing those.
Is this selective liberalism?
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 14:32
I am glad that you put forth your points and stuck to your ideology. However, when you protest about one issue, what stops you from protesting against other forms of bans? It certainly warrants an answer. Why selective liberalism? About adjectives, you can certainly use them but remember that you will get back what you give. So its your choice.
I am not here to win arguments
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 14:38
Instead of addressing the arguments being put forward, it is a common technique used by many to obfuscate the issue by posing counter questions.----------------------------- I have already addressed your arguments and also my concerns, apart from the concerns of the Nobel Laureate which were expressed 50 years back. I have countered all questions that were posed. I am not avoiding any questions. I am asking you the obvious that came to my mind because I see a paradox there. The logic that I have used to counter your arguments are powerful enough for me not to reply on tricks or techniques. Apparently, it takes much more than logic to bring in some balance. Experience alone would be your guide. Let things go to dogs and society would realise the mistakes.
What stops "me"?
Vinay - 6 February, 2009 - 16:13
What stops "me" from protesting? Nothing "stops" me from protesting, and I will protest with the rest when the time for protests comes. You can't have 24/7 professional protesters out on the roads, no? There have been protests for all your above mentioned 'questions' in the past. Desist from creating new adjectives like "selective liberalism" (whatever that means). If you see a "paradox", it is simply because you want to search for some stick to beat your pet-hate, the "liberals" with.
If you see a paradox here, I see a giant, everest-sized paradox in "your" thinking (I wonder what group I can bundle you under, since you have put me under the "liberals" category - 'fascists' sounds a little too premature. Anyway...). The paradox is this:
You have a problem with "pub culture" and girls drinking. Why do you not protest when millions and millions of people all across India drink and beat their wives at home? Why do you not protest when millions and millions of women in India drink cheap toddy and arrack, and destroy their systems? Why do you not protest when "conservative and tradition-minded" people make life tough for milions of widows all over India, forcing them to commit 'immoral activities'? Why does your heart not bleed for the millions of Bengali and Bihari girls who are forced into committing 'immoral acts' in Mumbai, Delhi and Pune? Why do you not protest when "traditional minded and upholders of culture" hound, maim, torture and kill people who dare to think of marrying someone of a different 'caste'?
I am tired of typing, and I have not even begun to list the scores and scores of paradoxes I see in your protests and your thinking.
Mangalore attack et al
mcadambi - 6 February, 2009 - 16:58
I initially stayed away from this debate because of paucity of time. But let me summarise what i feel about this. Although at the outset i am quite a conservative person, supporting Narendra Modi, BJP et al, i would view this pub attack as a travesty of justice.
One cannot impose a lifestyle on someone else. I cannot force people to do yoga. People are attracted to Yoga like honeybees to nectar in flowers. The Sene lead by Pramod Muthalik should insist that Westerns do not do yoga and follow "their" culture. Of course it will not.
While i campaign for an open liberal social life in Bangalore, i neither visit pubs and do not revel in pub music. Viewed from an economic point of view, the "free" life of Bengaluru is what provides "stress" relief to bpo workers, it workers et al. But then again this has to be regulated - because of incidents like the recent one involving Karthik Somiah in Indiranagar where he killed three pedestrians after DUI.
But that is for a different thread.
The world is built in diversity and that should be maintained. One should accept the diversity of the world we live in.
Don't exaggerate
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 17:21
"You have a problem with "pub culture" and girls drinking. Why do you not protest when millions and millions of people all across India drink and beat their wives at home? Why do you not protest when millions and millions of women in India drink cheap toddy and arrack, and destroy their systems? Why do you not protest when "conservative and tradition-minded" people make life tough for milions of widows all over India, forcing them to commit 'immoral activities'? Why does your heart not bleed for the millions of Bengali and Bihari girls who are forced into committing 'immoral acts' in Mumbai, Delhi and Pune? Why do you not protest when "traditional minded and upholders of culture" hound, maim, torture and kill people who dare to think of marrying someone of a different 'caste'?"----------------------------------------------------
I am against pub culture and liquor. It includes everything under it. P How do you assume that I don't protest arracks, liquor barons creating hell for villagers? I don't represent anybody here. So I am not aware of organisations that fight them. Your statement of millions and millions is plain exaggeration. Media keeps doing that for spicy news. But yes, toddy and other forms of liquor are very very dangerous! I don't know about organisations that fight them. If I know, I would certainly join them. Your allegation that conservative people are preventing widows from re-marrying is wrong. You need to update yourself. I agree that certain wrong things are happening. But it is mostly in the past. Gone are the days when widows had to tonsure their hair. I don't support such things. Your views are mostly how the media projects. And the media unfortunately not into balanced reporting. It keeps demeaning Indian values and highlights its negatives, negatives that crept in over a period of time, which happens naturally in any society. By the way, what are you doing to stop toddy and arrack? Why are concentrating on a pub incident where both men and women were attacked and they were all from rich families? I too I am fed-up with fighting with liberals. All I can say is, think about future generations. Don't allow a culture of drugs, adultery, liquor, etc. in the name of liberalism and democracy. Its going to destroy the social fabric in the form of slow poisoning. The existence of other social evils, I certainly don't support it. But I cannot support a system that allows slow poisoning as advocated by you. Sorry.
You miss the point
mayank - 6 February, 2009 - 17:30
The problem with this pub culture or toddy or bar culture is that it slowly destroys the social and moral fabric of any society. With regard to Pubs, it becomes a breeding ground for other immoral activities and there are many reports of dance bar girls involved in them. Its not about freedom of choice. Its just about the slow poisoning happening in society and erosion of moral values. As you know, promiscuous lifestyle is increasing among the youth. Divorces are increasing. Abortions and teenage pregnancies are also becoming a major problem. So, why cannot we categorise these social problems the same way as we treat drunken driving? An absolutely free lifestyle will breed a new set of social diseases just as the older traditional system had its own problems. Its as simple as that.
Upholding the law
mcadambi - 6 February, 2009 - 17:38
Mayank, no matter how much you rally against western culture - a lot of sections of the Indian Penal Code can be applied to Pramod Muthalik and co. Doesn;t it bother you that such violent behaviour is just plainly illegal?
When did I support Muthalik? Read my earlier posts and you will know that I don't support violence of any sort. But I don't support extreme liberalism which our society is heading towards. The day is not far when we would witness a complete breakdown of family values, even marriage is under threat now. The day is not far when whatever family breakdown is witnessed in the west will be seen here. How would you like that?
I am not trying to point fingures at anybody. All I say is that I have never seen the kind of uproar against lottery ban, homosexuality etc. the way it is happening against Pubs. Except for the employees of lottery shops, nobody protested. That's the reason I am enquiring. I see a complete distortion and one-sidedness.
You don't have to tell me about villages in India. I hail from a semi-urban city in U.P and I know how things are. But may I ask you how you claim to know everything about rural India and the lifestyle there? I surely don't know many things. I don't claim to know. The "Millions of cases of brutality" that you claim to know, is merely your feeling that exists due to bombardment my the media. Media wants to spice up news. they do it. I don't deny what you saying. But there is exaggeration. I agree with you that rural India is far away from this culture of liberalism. But what has that got to do with this culture of drugs, adultery, pubs, whisky etc which you guys are tacitly promoting?
Don't tell me that pubs are free of vices. Recently, the Bangalore police attested 15 girls and boys at a pub. They were all dance bar girls. Can you comment on this?
Pub is just one part of this western culture. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, drugs, free-living, individualism, divorces etc. are some of the other aspects of this western culture. You can choose to call this crap as long as you are personally not affected by these. Once you or your close associates or family members fall prey to these, God forbid, you will understand what I am saying. When you cannot understand logic, better learn it the hard way. Go and ask any Counsellor or Gynaecologist about the problem in teenage pregnancies. You will know what I am saying. Liberalism is tacitly promoting this social evil.
mayank
bialterminal - 7 February, 2009 - 08:02
Mayank,
"The west" has it's fair share of problems and nobody denies that. But, I am sure you are well travelled and have understood other aspects of other cultures as well. The west (or east for that matter) has a lot to offer too..many things being positive. I think you are misinterpreting "liberalism" to be equivalent to promoting drug addiction, alcoholism etc. Live and let live is what everybody is asking. I am not sure what your point of argument is! You are more than welcome to raise awareness of alcholism rather than asking pointless counter questions.
Like i said before in the other thread (the one for the Mangalore incident) social drinking at public places is very much as part of our culture as well and is well documented to be going back to ancient times. By saying this I am not justifying alcoholism. My point is, let's not use the age old politician's approach of blaming the "corrupt western influence" for our problems. Talking about teenage pregnancies..it is certainly not breaking news that child marriages were prevalent in our culture (hopefully we have left that behind) and so were teenage pregnencies associated with that. Should we now be in denial and pretend that our ever generous "western" counterparts influenced us and gifted us that evil too!! Wouldn't it be ridiculous for the west to be be blaming "Indian influence" for their problems such as corruption,dirty streets(now! that would be hard to find in most western cities),people without public manners etc.?
I would not want to live in a fools paradise and think that our culture is the greatest & the best and that is what matters for social fabric when goons go about bashing people up telling others what to do and then adding insult to injury by going out on bail the next day. I have seen enough of both worlds to come out of that fools paradise and make appropriate choices for myself and those that matter to me. Law & order is the pulse of a country, without that is does not matter if we are morally bankrupt Or if we are morally rich since we would be socially bankrupt in a uncivilized lawless society. I am quite perturbed by the recent turn of events and the extent of which intolerance and hooliganism has spread unchecked. Karnataka seems to be a different place now compared to what it was as recent as 10 to 15 years ago.
Culture and individuals
mcadambi - 7 February, 2009 - 08:04
Mayank,
I am fairly a "young" and "old" Bangalorean. I have read and witnessed cultural evolution of this city. People of all sorts of cultures walk in, while that puts pressure on infrastructure et al, Bangalore has not lost it's original and pristine Kannada culture.
Bengaluru is supposed to be the homosexuality capital of India - but did that mean with a presence of a few gay bars, entire familes broke down? Of course few families are hurt, but society is all about greatest good for the greatest number. Bangaloreans are still having large joint families, nuclear familes, learning carnatic / hindustani music and are at peace with themselves as individuals.
I respect that peace. I wish others respect that as well. Including Mr Muthalik and Co
bialterminal,
mayank - 7 February, 2009 - 17:33
I agree with you about law and order. I am not supporting any kind of violence. However, it is wrong to connect child marriages with teenage pregnancies. Child marriage concept is an evil and has a different background. Teenage pregnancies occur primarily due to a liberal and free culture.
Liberalism doesn't promote drug, adultery, and other evils directly. Please read
the article and statements of the Nobel Laureatte who spoke about his concerns 50 years back. Don't you feel he has a point? Liberalism without limits is what constitutes liberalism. Its the breeding ground for all social evils such as alcoholism, adultery, divorce etc. Divorce is a great problem in the west. Children born out of divorces parents are much more vulnerable to problems and could commit crimes. This is a fallout of liberal divorce laws where for stupid reasons, people divorce.
Its not about the west blaming the east or vice versa. Nobody can claim cultural superiority. but as indians, you must admit how obsessed we are with western culture and how we demean our own values and ethics. We took to liberalism simply because uncle sam loves it.
Lastly, there is no comparison between the fallout of a liberal culture and law and order problems. The first one is problematic but its fallouts are slow and systematic, very hidden. Law and order problem is obvious. Most people can see only the visible.
My point is simple. We need to address the issue of a run-away liberal culture that we are following or advocating. We need to know where it affects the society negavtively. Individual rights are not as absolute as we advocate.
I respect peace too.
mayank - 7 February, 2009 - 17:42
I am with you as far as the incident in Mangalore is concerned. But, I differ when you say that various forces that exist within society have no effect on it at all. Lets understand this. What creeps in as a part of liberal culture would someday become the dominant one, dictating others to follow. It may not happen with homosexuality but it will definately happen with liquor culture, divorce culture [Divorce rate has increased enormously], drugs, adultery, AIDS etc. These have a definate negative impact on society. That's what I am concerned about. As you know, media is promoting western culture left and right. Its impact can be felt in the society. Today, teenage pregnancies are a huge problem. We cannot look the other way. Your Bangalore will soon become the next Bangkok in a few years.
Indian culture
mcadambi - 8 February, 2009 - 19:32
Mayank, Indian culture is far too diverse to succumb to outside influences. We have been an open culture for the past 5000 years, maybe even since stone ages as many biologists tell us. Gurcharan Das was once asked this question whether Indian culture would turn into another McWorld - and he replied that it is only in India that McDonalds would survive by not selling the big mac but a maharaja mac.
See the point is - our culture is quite strong and on a lighter note - here is an analogy - westerners or those coming from quite clean countries like Singapore et al encounter significant health problems due to the pollution here. But we Indians have developed a strong immune system and can even withstand any exotic germ. In fact, scientifically speaking, it was our genetic diversity which enable India as a nation not to succumb to small pox - which killed native americans.
So using that analogy - it does not matter if there are gays in Indian society - for that matter, the aam admi on the streets would not notice the difference between hijras and gays.
Divorce rates are increasing due to the new found cultural freedom. Althought it is not a good sign per se, sometimes it may be the best medicine instead of an amputation for the couples involved.
I am not very concerned about pubs / casinos / woodstock et al as i am happy with my conservative way of life. I would raise my children to make their own responsible choices. I cannot prevent them from leading their own lifestyles.
Misplaced priorities
Vinay - 8 February, 2009 - 20:01
Nonsense topics like "what women are wearing on the streets" and "young boys and girls going to pubs and drinking" cause extreme emotion in India. On the other hand the level of apathy is too high for some issues. Seeing filth and rubbish on the roads with small children foraging in the filth for food is an "acceptable" sight for most people, but the very same people will begin giving nasty stares if they see a couple holding hands. Pissing in public is acceptable in India, walking with a member of the opposite sex isn't.
Bangalore has had this "pub culture" for more than 150 years now, and everyone was fine with it. Just because Meerut, or Mughalsarai, or Muzaffarnagar do not have pubs, it is apparently extremely shocking for some to see that there are places in India where people of both sexes can actually have a drink together. (BTW, in Meerut, it is impossible for a girl to travel by public transport for more than 6 months without being "eve-teased" at least once)
What women wear and what men wear cannot be termed a nonsense topic simply because we are living in a society and have to adhere to norms of decency. You cannot claim rights of individuals to be supreme in society. According to you, a person has the right to walk naked on the roads. But imagine what social repurcussions it would have in society. His or her right is limited to the bounds of decency. Its not about lungi or pants. Its about decency. Women wearing revealing dresses indeed causes sexual arousal in men. To that extent, it is infringement of their rights. Same is true vice versa. Freedom comes with responsibility.
I agree with you that there are paradoxes in Indian society - plenty of them. There are paradoxes among the liberals too. Two wrongs don't make a right. Pissing and begging has not been given enough media attention; nor has it been politicised. The media wants to blow up things that suit them, as the Mangalore incident. Pissing or begging is wrong. It doesn't evoke much attention or emotion simply because not enough attention is given to them. That doesn't justify social evils such as alcoholism, indecency of dressing, adultery etc. all of which the liberals want to justify. Two wrongs cannot make a right Vinay.
Many parts of urban U.P. have Pubs. But guys like you want to spread alcoholism under the guise of liberal thinking. I have no problem with girls and boys drinking as long as the act of drinking doesn't get the better of them and as long as the act of drinking doesn't get popularised and doesn't become a fad.
Your reference to eve teasing in meerut is unwarranted. Crimes take place all over the world, not just in Meerut. If I refer to the extent of crimes in 'civilized' bangalore, you will be on the defensive. Pubs may have been there for a long time. But the culture of drinking became popularised only in recent times. 30-40 years back, pubs were not as well-known as today.
If we go by liberal and individualism standards, we have to un-ban dowry and many more social evils. Our run-away population is also because of liberal thinking and persuasive methods in contrast to a more responsible population control method.
I agree to an extent
mayank - 9 February, 2009 - 07:37
Cadambi,
I am not saying that we fortify India from the west. Definately not. But I am deeply worried about the new social evils that are creeping into Indian society in a big way - some of them, as I mentioned are high divorce rate, alcoholism, teenage pregnancies, single motherhood, HIV, drugs, adultery etc. I agree with good values from the west but as all civilizations have negatives, so has the west. Indian are out here only to imbibe the bad from the west and leave the good part behind.
Its easy to say that indian civilization is vast and cannot get affected. You do not know until you personally get affected. I know the effects of this promiscuous behavior from close quarters even though I haven't yet been personally affected. Hence, I am very upset with run-away liberalism which would ultimately destroy society and its order. The effects of divorce would be felt in the coming decades. Its easy to praise the divorce culture. Its also easy to say your children are free to do what they like. Would you like it if your daughter is pregnant while she is in college? Would you like it if your children are divorcees and its now their 3rd partner? Would you like it if your wife divorces you on the pretext of boredom or worse, if she sleeps with another guy while you are away or on a tour? Its happening right here in India. So, what you preach would come around and affect you. Think about it.
Yeah, right - lets talk of crime statistics
Vinay - 9 February, 2009 - 07:50
Lets talk of crime statistics in Bangalore and compare it with cities in UP. I will not be on the "defensive" if you quote the number of crimes in, say, Meerut (just an example city). I will divide the population of the city by the number of crimes, and then we'll talk. I know that part of the country rather well, and one can either accept the crime problem there, specifically w.r.t. eve-teasing, or bury one's head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich. A girl in jeans and T-shirt (not walking naked, mind you) is much more likely to be eve-teased in Meerut city, than in Bangalore. However, I accept that Meerut is much much better than most other places in UP.
Mayank >> "If we go by liberal and individualism standards, we have to un-ban dowry and many more social evils. Our run-away population is also because of liberal thinking and persuasive methods in contrast to a more responsible population control method."
Ha ha. Why didn't you say that we have to "un-ban" murder? That is also an "individualistic trait" going by that logic. Our runaway population is because of people who insist that talking about sex, or introducing sex education in Government schools is an "immoral thing", and that the "C" word is immoral and decadent.
This is actually getting to be a highly unproductive and nonsense discussion, diverging into all kinds of needless topics. Time out.
Sodom and Gomorrah
mcadambi - 9 February, 2009 - 08:29
Mayank,
In the Bible, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of their vice and deviant sexuality. The biblical patriarch, Abraham pleads to god not to do so. God then strikes a deal with Abraham that if 50 righteous people are found in those cities, God would spare them. But god only found 4, and the cities were destroyed.
In these days, lets save God the work of destroying our cites. It suffices to say that only a marginal set of people are deviat / queer or whatever you call it.
I think it is a fair bargain for us these days compared to God then if we have only a small but insignificant set of queer people. That way we do not end up as Sodom and Gomorrah.
Society today is more generous than god of biblical times.
mayank
bialterminal - 9 February, 2009 - 09:02
//Hence, I am very upset with run-away liberalism which would ultimately destroy society and its order.
Mayank,
Since you are steadfast against liberalism, nobody can change that. I have attempted to point out to you that liberalism does not equate to the social problems that you have pointed out and i have clearly not gotten to you. If you want to see the ill effects of taking the other exptreme of liberalism we needn't look any farther than our western neighbours and countries in the middle east.
I strongly suggest & request you to understand what being liberal (or a liberal lifestyle) means in the broader sense.
The social problems you have outlined could happen (and very much happens) in a male dominated autocratic society which is "not liberal". Child marriages(and associated teenage pregnancies), sati, talaaq-talaaq-talaaq(where the woman pretty much does not have any rights) ...do you think all these are fair and do you think these would not happen if we stop being liberal? These pretty much happened during an era of autocratic male domination. Praja forum supports fact based discussions, I leave it to you to dig up facts on these subjects. In an earlier post you had mentioned that is is wrong to associate teenage pregnancies with child marriage, but simple general knowledge and common sense would suggest otherwise. Just google up child marriage and teenage pregnancies.
A liberal society is where we are garuanteed our fundamental rights and we can be law abiding citizens without each of us becoming self appointed "guardians" of society telling each other what we can do and can't do.
There is something called "Education" to counter social issues; combine that with good parenting then things should be fine.
India is a very diverse
ebi.schubert - 9 February, 2009 - 20:17
India is a very diverse country with a rich cultural heritage. It is a country that has people from diverse religious background and diverse culture. The context of the speech that you are quoting is addressing a people with predominantly christian view point of the world. I am not sure how much of it is applicable/possible in a diverse country like India or under the current circumstances.
Your allegation that all these are western influences and alien to indian culture is not justified. The manifestation of the activity might be western in nature. For e.g social drinking of alcohol has always existed in India, but not necessarily in the pub. Indian clothing might always been sensual and revealing but not necessarily mini-skirts and tank tops.
I am really not sure what your basic gripe is about. I think it will help if you can define what you mean by "pub culture". Is it social drinking/ alcoholism/ social dancing/ sex outside marriage, western clothing, etc ? Do you have a problem that some people of indian origin are doing all this ? Or do you have a problem that media is glorifying this and there by creating a peer pressure for the young men and women ? The solutions to these problems are different. It might make sense and help the discussion if you can define what is the real issue here and so some facts about how the issue is connected to social evil that you are talking about (like pub culture leading to increased divorce rate, etc).
What has west got to do with alohol,drugs,homesexuality
Burnner - 9 February, 2009 - 20:32
Mayank,
Apparently you tend to blame west for the alcohol,drug & homosexuality culture in India, whereas these have been in India for centuries way before some of the western countries even existed.
Do you know what Bhang is made of? Its canabis leaves and next time you visit Kajuraho, take a closer look, there are homosexual carving everywhere. And Indians have been using alcohol (in the form of arrack) and tobacco in the form of (chewing tobacco stuffed in beeda,pan,etc) for generations.
So pleeeeze don't tell us all these came to India from the west.
Now, regarding your stance on anti-liberalization, just remember the very fact that you come to praja and express your opinions so openly is because of the so called liberalized freedom we indians enjoy, can you do this if you were in Russia?
And finally, what would happen to you if organization like sene and others had their way?
I suppose you are from UP but live in bangalore, would it be fair if these organization come to your house and threaten you to relinquish all of the north indian culture which you follow else leave bangalore?
Every place has its pluses and minuses. The north is much better in terms of socialisation when compared to the south. But I am not here to discuss about crimes and such things between and meerut and Bangalore. I can say a lot more about the same.
Do you know the difference between murder and dowry? If person X wants to give dowry to person Y, why should society stop him/ her? Its their business. Dowry is similar to gift. Don't people gift each other? Why is gifting not dowry? So, see the difference between murder and dowry. In murder, it is involuntary. In dowry, it is a mix - sometimes, it is by force. Sometimes it is not by force. I know of cases where bride's parents give a gift to the son-in-law because they want to show it as a status symbol. They will file a false dowry harassment case against him when the relationship goes sour. [Even though the son-in-law didn't want to accept dowry].
The run away population is because of appeasement of certain groups that don't want to contain their population citing religious reasons. Whatever it maybe, nobody has the guts to do it now because of wrong notions of freedom and liberalism. Your own liberalism clearly states that if two individuals want to do something, why should society stop him/ her. So, if two individuals want to have 25 children, why should society stop them? This is the price of liberalism.
Religions came into being because at some time in history, societies had gone to the dogs! Think about it. Why was there a need for religion at all if society could take care of itself. moreover, i wonder whether the people who have gone astray are in a minority - check out the number of adulterous relationships, threesomes, AIDs cases etc. you will know what I am saying. With the media promoting adultery and western lifestyle, what more can we expect? Who gave the right to the media to promote western culture? It should not promote anything - just provide news that is unbiased.
bialterminal,
mayank - 12 February, 2009 - 18:12
sir, be practical. I am not against liberalism as such, I am against this extreme form that you guys are preaching out here. Don't you see that the Nobel Laureate whom I have quoted has a point in deed? Liberalism and social problems definately have a connection. In traditional societies, the problems that I have stated would not occur in the same degree as in the modern liberal societies. Even 30 years back, the incidents of divorce, teenage pregnancies, adultery was much less when compared to now because values were different. Liberal values combined with western thought have caught on and social problems of a greater intensity have come into the system.
Your statement about so-called male domination is not relevant to the present times. What do you mean by male-domination? Check these websites and blogs and tell me what is this whole funda about "male-domination" is about?
www.498a.org
http://www.saveindianfamily.org
http://www.antidowry.org
http://legalfighter.wordpress.com
http://www.wemen.us/
http://www.crisp-india.org
http://legalfighter.instablogs.com/
http://crusader-indianjustice.blogspot.com
About child marriages, when did I support it? Teenage pregnancies are a huge phenomenon in the west. Lets not fool ourselves. Today, the average 15 year old has had atleast a few bf and gfs.
I am not against liberalism. I am against extreme liberalism.
Laws? Huh. Do you know how much harm the laws are causing to the society? How many people are arrested without investigation? Who makes laws? The wise saints in parliament. You call this democracy! In the past, the spiritual seers used to guide society. Now, the angels in parliament who stage a walkout and pass bills without discussions are the guiding stars of society.
Education is only to get degrees and marks. Who is going to decide on what is proper education? Again, you will start blaming any introductsion of morality because morality is so relative. [Note: I am not supporting any violence or Ram sainiks. I am saying that education is also controversial.] Lastly, your education and "Good parenting" will be of no use in a society that is highly corrupt. Wait until you are affected personally. You will join me in this fight.
Whether Christianity or Hinduism or any other religion, you will agree with me that tradition all over the world is breaking down at an alarming rate. You will also agree with me that the earlier centuries had the benefits of morality as espoused by these religions in their respective regions. For example, Christianity was the guiding principle in the west. Today, that has broken down and morals are left to the individual. In the absense of any moral guidelines such as a religion, things are left to the indivdual's discretion and the negative tendencies will come to the fore. For example, its very difficult to contain the temptation of not drinking or not having a relationship at office - whatever you call the name of that relationship. So, this is one of my point. Liberalism without any moral or ethical codes the way religions would guide is bound to result in social problems. So, in the context of India, even with diverse cultural background, there were always some moral guidelines in the form of religion and now that is breaking.
Regarding social drinking, there is a controversy whether it existed in India and to what extent. I cannot comment any further on it. Because many sections in Hindu society do not allow any kind of drinking. Times have changed though. However, we have to see whether alcoholism is useful or not. AS far as I am concerned, the liberalists are silently encouraging all social evils including alcoholism. The liquor barons and MNCs are using liberalism and the liberalists to peddle their agenda - to make more drunkards and make more profits.
My basic gripe is very clear. Liberalism to an extreme is definately harmful to society. Liberalism and individual rights began in a more sober way. Now, we are seeing the extreme version. 2. Pub culture is all that you mentioned. Adultery etc may not have a direct link to pub culture but it is the way the west lives. Come on, we all know how the west lives. I never said that PUB culture is leading to increased divorce rate. I am saying that liberalism and westernisation is definately leading to increased divorce rate.
Yes, I definately feel that the media is glorifying western culture. You are absolutely right. Who gave the media to promote western culture? They are to present news as it is; none of their business to promote anything - western or eastern.
There is a controversy about the things that you have mentioned - bhung, alocoholism, tobacco being in India much earlier than even the west. Whatever it may be, I am referring to the pub, drug, homosexuality culture that has entered India from the west in recent times as we generally know. If it had existed in India much before, we have to definately consider them a social evil.
In recent times, the culture of drugs, alcohol etc. has definately come from the west because majority of Indians simply could not afford it, let alone investing in expensive alcohol etc. Lets face it, Indians have a weakness for anything that comes from the west.
I am not against liberalisation. I am agianst the extreme form as being advocated. I am for exactly what the nobel laureatte meant. Nothing more; nothing less.
I don't support the Ram sainiks. But I support the cause they claim to fight for. - Against pubs, the indecent activities etc. I am against alcoholism and promiscuous living. I am against drugs. I consider all these harmful to society. Lets not becomes the next Bankok.
If any portion of N.Indian culture is causing harm to society, there is no reason to continue it. Ofcourse I never support violence of any sort.
The Ram Sainiks should have protested in a peaceful and democractic manner.
Culture Stats
Sagarm11 - 13 March, 2009 - 12:49
I think Mayank is absolutely correct. The problem with these Western tilting opinion makers is that they have no knowledge about the state of society in the West, which appears all golden to them and know only negative things about our own heritage. The extent to which the ideas of the West are aped and justified startles me.I am no supporter of violence, but if people become so erudite of our own past and start examining it, then We can also erudite about the destructive lifestyle of Western Civilization. If anyone needs facts/data/statistics, they are welcome.
Thank you for agreeing. The other day, I saw a news item that showed women in Chandigarh fully drunk and lying on the street unable to help themselves. The cops were called and taken away. Imagine if this gets replicated all over India.
The corporates and businessmen support liberalism for the simple reason that more and more drunkards can be created and that in turn would mean more profits. Liberalism breeds consumerism. They are inter-connected. They have hijacked the media to promote liberalism and drinking as socially acceptable and as a social necessity. It is the in-thing for gen-next to drink, smoke, and consume.
Erudite???
s_yajaman - 13 March, 2009 - 13:38
Erudite = well read. With that knowledge you might want to change your comment.
No one is justifying aping the west here. Please read the comments properly.
The social price of liberalism.
mayank - 13 March, 2009 - 14:01
Read this - Disaster of me me [Mayank, WARNING: never paste full stories from other commercial websites, only provide links - mods],
Renuka Chaudhary called for "pub bharo andolan" and compares it to "Jail Bharo Andolan". Another guy compares "pink chaddi campaign" to "Salt Satyagraha".
Here are some pictures and videos that give a preview of the "free India" that we will see soon if people like this have their way.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3102119546/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3101284599/in/set-72157610652607540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3101284707/in/set-72157610652607540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3102119842/in/set-72157610652607540/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMfJtFqQlbw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPVMj4H6XSM
Sir you are supporting unfettered liberalism and that is the problem. This situation would harm the society more than do any good.
It simply helps the capitalists and corporates to make more assets by killing the social health and fabric of the country.
I have posted some pics above. This could happen in your own family tomorrow.
If I had not seen comments which were implying it the first place, I would not have made my comment. Those who have made comments,in general, I have noted that they are trying to defend certain actions of "freedom" and trying to invoke the status of Indian Society in the past to put forward their argument. I merely responded to that. These are those who dont have any independent opinions. I think you need to read the comments properly. I dont want to pick up an argument here.Stay tuned to topic.
Mayank,
The cause you espouse is good.So we will struggle for it. Until we are here, lets try to fight this unfettered liberalistic philosophy. See any positive news is good news for us. The battle lines are set, and we just to need to fight!! No need to lose sleep over this. The world is much more than what we see, and there are certainly some good out there. With this, stay motivated, and keep fighting!!
Comments closed
admin123 - 13 March, 2009 - 16:20
Since the comments have lost fact based aspect and have turned into idological arguments, we believe they wont add any more value to this disucssion.
This thread is hence being closed for comments.
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