As per the meeting with IDD,  do they  want presentation or the proposal on CRS.  As CTTP  prepared by RITES did not consider the Devanhallai, Nelamangala, & Dodballapur and  excluding KR Puram to Yelahanaka track.

MP Ananthkumar wants have full fledge discussion with presentation in ABIDe with BDA, BMTC, Railways, Traffic Commissioner,  BMRCL, IDD with Chief Minister & MoS for State Railways K H Muniyappa.

As suggested @Syed

• First layout the comprehensive plan/proposal for CRS say how CRS will look like after 25 years.
• Plan that covers next 20-25 years - Routes, Features, Operation Options, Funding sources etc.
• From that plan, deduct medium term and near term feasibility/li>
• Near Term - Expand and improve the existing CRS service
• Medium Term - Introduce new routes with a minimum work on tracks, but lot of focus on new stops, amenities, integrating with other PT services

Here we should not get into the Financial aspect as  IDD / Railway will do their work. Excpet funding of sources, these steps we should progress. Also we will not go into the details of capacity  as this Railways subject, we will  make point  how existing DEMU / Passanger services to be converted into full fledge services of CRS and extending them in both directions.

As Syed told we have CRS in a small  way running is true as the Train Number : YH1, YH-2,  HY-1, HY-2, SD-1, DS-1, YD-1, DY-1,  numbering of trains are meant for Local Trains only. 

@Silkboard :

• Can some one detail all station connectivity needs with one example
• Can someone help with a list of stations needed on Hebbal-Anekal line?

We will not restric Hebbal-Anekal, we need  to have list of  new stations in all roots with explaining the  importance of the location for  ridership.

• Can some one do the cost analysis - how much would you possible charge for the ride?

Cost Analysis should be left to the  Karnataka Govt & Railways.  Instead of this we should suggest how  each new station can be explored for commercial purpose as done in New Mumbai Stations.

Also project funding will be between State & Railways &  our politicans will take call on that, we will not touch on this, We will  provide the detail  on how MMTS in Hyderabad,  MRTS at Chennai, Suburban Trains at Mumbai were funded & operated. 

Will upload the suggested roots for this CRS and  current running DEMU / Passanger Trains arround Bangalore.

 

 

 

 

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As we discussed yesterday, I have contacted Narayan for help with a solid and clear CRS map for Bangalore showing phase 1 focus routes, stations, new stations, and big catchment areas.

Need to be clear on what routes we are putting up in this presentation cum report. Lets do two, from this list

1. Hebbal Anekal line - for sure, there is no Metro or Elevated road coming to cover the catchment areas here
2. Yeshwantpur - Nelamangala (but they already have an elevated road coming there)
3. Yeshwantpur - Devanahalli

Not that other lines are not important. But lets pick where chances of a competing proposal are lower (Metro, BRT etc), and there should be large catchment areas today or tomorrow.

Further, taking just 1 or 2 lines and detailing them will make for a better presentation than talking high level for the 9 tracks mentioned in CTTP.

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working on the details for CRS bit busy in the office for next couple of days. Will prepare & will upload the details.

For Presentaion of CRS, we need to  cover all the areas in few slides, but as you told we need  to  put routes with maximum coverage with more distance.  CTTP has done short study with short distance coverage only,  Local Train concept will work for more distance with maximum coverage.  we should  take the following root :

1 : Kengeri / Bidadi to  Devanhalli     2. Yesvanthpur to Hosur                                                   3. Kengeri Whitefiled / Bangarpet     4.  Bangarpet to Devanahalli  and Dodballpur via K R Puram

Do not take Yesvanthpur to Nelamanagala for presentation. Do not consider other infrastructure projects, we will concentrate on CRS. 

 

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Murali, blrsri, N, IDS and SB,

 Thanks for all your efforts in materializing this meeting. It seems a very good meeting and that too with an action item.

I am very g;ad to note that we have already started on that path. Can one of you post a list of things or information that we should collect for preparing the report on CRS?

BTW what would be the objective of this report? I believe it should present the CRS infrastructure in a comprehensive manner.
I am sure it should have 3 components:

1. Short Term - Improving the existing CRS service(YH) to make it purposeful
2. Medium Term - Adding more routes on existing infrastructure
3. Long Term - Plan for a consolidated CRS system that is well integrated with other PT system

Hope this is what we might have to work on.

As usual, my services are available for collecting info, drafting reports, presentations and follow up.

Syed

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 Pl check the presentation storyline attached with this task and provide feedback.

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Good presenation. Some suggested tweaks: 
- The "Where" can be expanded to include an outline of the existing focus lines that will be expanded by Narayan.
- An initial frequency of 10 mins is probably unrealistic; probably 20 (or even 30) mins to start with and then increased as required.
- Some verbiage on "problems" (railways not interested in suburban service because of bleeding - reasons for bleeding)? Solutions (SPV, PP already indicated). 

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 - The "Where" can be expanded to include an outline of the existing focus lines that will be expanded by Narayan.

Yes

- An initial frequency of 10 mins is probably unrealistic; probably 20 (or even 30) mins to start with and then increased as required.

It depends on so many factors biggest of which is the ultimate model. As you have rightly pointed out the frequency will evolve over time possibly ending up in one train every 2 minutes, who knows? What is the commuter rail frequency across globe? I would rather be agressive in demand but a technical study will need to take traffic figures into account for determining the frequency. It may be an option to leave out the number altogether lest we split hairs on this.

- Some verbiage on "problems" (railways not interested in suburban service because of bleeding - reasons for bleeding)? 

Do we know why they are bleeding in Chennai & Hyderabad and by how much? It may help us form up on the solutions. Need some research help here.

- Solutions (SPV, PP already indicated)

Need inputs here. 

 

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IDS,

Did go through your presentation. I am afraid this need to be re-written in order to comply with the action items you and SB have mentioned in the postings on meeting report. If I am reading your meeting summary correctly, Mr. Madhu and Mr. Ananth Kumar is asking for a report that presents CRS in comprehensive manner and all the do items to be feasible.

1. We don't need to present or dwell on the philosophy of WHY CRS. CRS is alraedy here and it could remain here permanently or soon may become history.
2. Instead of WHY CRS, it should be HOW CRS can benefit B'lore or vice-Versa i.e B'lore can benefit from CRS.

My suggestion would be:

• First layout the comprehensive plan/proposal for CRS say how CRS will look like after 25 years.
• Plan that covers next 20-25 years - Routes, Features, Operation Options, Funding sources etc.
• From that plan, deduct medium term and near term feasibility/li>
• Near Term - Expand and improve the existing CRS service
• Medium Term - Introduce new routes with a minimum work on tracks, but lot of focus on new stops, amenities, integrating with other PT services etc.

Syed

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IDS,

 Detailed article on Chennai MRTS

http://businesstoday.intoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&Itemid=1&task=view&id=14285&sectionid=45&issueid=79&page=archieve

Delhi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Suburban_Railway

All of these talk about connectivity issues and frequency..

Btw can we get coaches like the ones we have for Hyd MMTS..its done at ICF in chn

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/article392428.ece

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 As CTTP  prepared by RITES did not consider the Devanhallai, Nelamangala, & Dodballapur and  excluding KR Puram to Yelahanaka track.

Very good point, Yeshwantpur to Hosur is insufficient. We need to have the CTTP map in front of us when deciding the routes and asking for stuff. For example we cannot ask for city to Whitefield as it is already covered by metro. 

This was the reason Mr Madhu pulled up the CTTP map he wants us to understand it clearly. We in fact told him we have seen the map more than anybody else in the govt. Mass transit is coming up in various areas in different forms like metro/BRTS etc. The CRS needs to be differentiated for its need, coverage & points of presence. 

CRS map here click to expand

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  If I am reading your meeting summary correctly, Mr. Madhu and Mr. Ananth Kumar is asking for a report that presents CRS in comprehensive manner and all the do items to be feasible

End goal is, they want our demands in written form to be placed before them. All feasibility, pre feasibility, DPR they will do with appropriate people iDECK, KRIDE etc etc are there for that. 

We cant say just give me CRS, we should also define what we mean by CRS (the way we see it) because like you say CRS already exists in their terminology (in our terminology this is just another train not CRS)

The demand report from our side should include

1. What is the coverage we are seeking (what towns we want to touch in Phase1, Phase 2 etc), maybe why we picked that town?

2. What are the extra stations we are asking for in each of the above segment?

3. What is the integration with other systems we are looking for in each station?

4. What is the accessibility/feeders we are seeking in each station?

For the report (not presentation), all we need to do is a study for each station like the one done for Hebbal by me here. Once we agree on the station list each one pick one station and do a comprehensive report with pics. You may not do too many details but you need to have knowledge of that station and ask for what you want. 

The presentation is a lot more high level to hardsell the need to do CRS thats why the 'Why CRS' (our definition CRS)

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All of these talk about connectivity issues and frequency..

These 2 are the crux of our CRS as well. Can you summarize the takeaways from the services for each city and add it as attachment to this project? 

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I think IDS too knows the current version he has put up is not it. It needs work.

I suggest that instead of looking at what he has put up temporarily and commenting to that, or suggesting the approach (we do presentations for our livings, so can organize the final content quickly), CRS well wishers help with content focus on one area they know about CRS potential.

• Can some one detail all station connectivity needs with one example
• Can someone help with a list of stations needed on Hebbal-Anekal line?
• Can some one do numbers for catchment areas of this line?
• Can some one do the cost analysis - how much would you possible charge for the ride?

Help with the actual slides please.

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 Issues with Chennai MRTS which was planned for 6 Lakh commuters a day(they are doing 80K today) are as below:

1. Poor frequency, especially during non-peak hours

2. Station locations not strategic, not close to populated areas

"This alignment(run along the Cooum river) was chosen to avoid problems of land acquisition as the rail line passes through the congested parts of the city". However ill planning on the station locations have created issues.

3. Difficult access to stations due to a lack of integration with other modes of transport.

 "We are in a chicken-and-egg situation. We cajoled Chennai's Metropolitan          Transport Corporation (MTC) to run bus services to a few stations. After a  few weeks they discontinued the service saying there were no users for it,"

Hence a deeper commitment is needed to popularize the services

4. Poor safety at the station premises, including the parking facilities

5. Lack of promotion to increase footfalls

6.Busses and other PT should compliment instead they compete with MRTS and they win hands down simply because they have been 'there' and reliable

The revenues for the last 10 months of the MRTS are 13Cr for an expenditure of 23 Cr. Its bleeding the IR.

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SB, IDS,

It was my 2nd guess to understand the objective of report/presentation that is being asked to present. Since there is NO clarity on that, people like me can only 2nd guess. That is the reason why I requested for that pecific information. In any case now I understand what we need. However for clarity, it would be better if you could lay the layout of the report that is being planned.

If you see my 1st comment, I had guessed it right about the information that should go in.

Interestingly just 2 days back Manjari and I talked about how to get a sample information that we need to gather for atleast one station. Let me see if I or Manjari can help you with that.

As you had stated facts w.r.t Chennai CRS, Bangalore CRS would need all that is being felt missing in Chennai. Each one of the problem statement is true for Bangalore CRS also.

Syed

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Attached the following files :

• Existing  34  Station lists
• 12  Roots / Alignments to be proposed for CRS
• Bangalore city Railway Track Map
• Startegy to be followed for CRS take off.

These 12 Roots  / Alignments  what CRS we should have  down the lane 5 years from now.  Startegy should  have 3-4 phases to make full fledge service..  

         Phase -1 : These Local Trains services should be between  5 Hrs to 23 Hrs day.

•  Convert existing 14 pair of Trains from SBC to Bangarpet  into 12  rake EMU services and extend backward upto Kengeri.
• Extend  existing 12 more services  upto Kengeri which are running from SBC / YPR to Hosur and Chikballapur. ( Phase -2 convert these into EMU services ) 
• Electric Track exists between following sections, start  6 rake EMU services :            

1. Kengeri to Biyappanhalli  via Yesvanthpur  Dist : 40 Kms & existing stations 10     
2. Yesvanthpur to Bangarpet  via  Banswadi & Baiyyappanahalli Dist : 77 Kms & existing   station : 13 Nos.      
3. Kengeri to Yelahanka via Yesvanthpur, Dist : 31 Kms & with stations. 
4. Bangarpet to Yelahanka via K R Puram Dist : 70 Kms with 11 Stations     

12  EMU  services on these  4sectors can be deployed

• Proposed Passanger Train in the Railway Budget to Nelamangala, start this as Local Train from  Kengeri with  8 services even if  it is  at  odd hrs in the  day.time.
• Run 4 more DEMU services between Yesvanthpur to Hosur.

Now in a Phase -1,  without  much need for Tracks,  we have already have 26 services ( 14+12 )  and another 24 services         (1 2 + 8  + 4 ) .  In over all we can have 50 services within next 4-6 months. 

EMU  rakes needed for  the 14 pair of services to Bangarpet and other roots. Four DEMU rakes needed for Nelamangala & Hosur.  

Their will be small capacity constraint between SBC to Kengeri,  should not be much problem during  9Hrs to 17 Hrs.

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Sanjeev - I would still say that while you could certainly talk all routes and all new stations, goal of the presentation should be to generate excitement, and not supply a lot of data needed for a decision. It will be better to list all possible routes, but detail out only one or two route as much as we can to show the exciting possibilities. Kind of like, "as an example ... let us look at this route in detail. here are the stations, here is the catchment area, here is current state of investment in transportation along this route, see there is minimum overlap etc etc  ...."

In fact, if we can detail a line that touches the areas that BJP didn't do well in recent elections, that may be a subtle way to make the current govt realize the possibilites.

Sanjeev - I take your point that detailing capacity and finances etc is like doing the railways and IDD's job which they will anyway do later. You are right, no need to detail such things for the presentation.

Let me try a storyline based on what I read so far:

• Use CTTP as the base, be aware of all transportation investments currently underway - 1 slide
• Show the long term potential of CRS - connects city with satellite towns, show all possible routes (Real advantage is using existing infrastructure, so should not talk new tracks or lines, except proposals for doubling) - 2-3 slides
• Along with a 25 year plan like thing (which I think is an overkill, but I will go with the majority), we should have a clear proposal on phase 1, things that can get us benefits in 3-4 years (current govt's remaining tenure) - 3-4 slides
• Special focus on "indirect" things that are more important that just running more trains (things like connectivuty and access to stations, connecting with BMTC) - 2 slides
• Appendix - can put wild ideas or possibilities like moving out city station h ere. 2-3 slides.

So total 10-12 slides, good for a 20 minute presentation. Remember, shorter the better, less you say, more the interest.

IDS - let us do the presentation for Sanjeev first, and a detailed version (for IDD) later. With IDD, we can probably go a little more technical and detailed (perhaps cover all routes).

For a presentation, goal should be to excite, and convey that people want it, and people can benefit in short term as well. The thing is, its not that nobody in Abide or cabinet would not have thought of this by now. The problem may be that #1 they think this is not really that beneficial for people (when Metro and new Buses are already in the works or #2 it is not doable because of Railway related state-center complications. So let us target these two perceptions in the best way that we can.

I will attempt a storyline ppt - updated version of Sathya's version by tomorrow night.

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Hi All,

We need to bear in mind that there isn't one CRS system in the country that has been successful yet, barring the one in Mumbai, but then Mumbai's N-S terrain is an exception rather than the norm.

After the train ride to Hosur & back, I felt that many of the existing stations were not at all suitably located & some need to be closed out to give way for other/s to be built afresh. An example is Heelalige, near Chandapura, which is in the middle of nowhere. If this station were shifted adjacent to Hosur road, it might make things far more convenient for commuters & bus connectivity could be solved much more easily. Another example is Karmeelaram - this could similarly be shifted to a location adjacent Sarjapura rd.

Even Bellandur rd is not conveniently located, though there isn't much choice there. Stations adjacent Varthur rd (Marathalli) & at Kaggadasapura near CV Raman nagar would similraly have great potential to attract commuters.

Shifting /rebuilding stations would be seen as avoidable wastefulness by most since these are perceptions that we continue to have within our system for too long - this can be very hard to overcome, despite the reality of better business sense.

Thus, some bold initiatives would be needed by the powers that be, & we need to push for such thinking through this presentation.

After having read about & experienced travel on Chennai MRTS, I am now fully convinced that unless some radical thinking by IR (or it's various divisions) goes into planning & managing city CRS systems, nothing much will change - they will continue to bleed & the blame game will go on. This is the real tough nut to crack !

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  I felt that many of the existing stations were not at all suitably located 

With feeder system in place the station can be in timbuktoo and you will have people swarming in & out.

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