Naveen - If you wish to continue to maintain that BMTC services are better than the bus services in Mangalore (South Kanara in general), Kochi, Hubli-Dharwar (Bendre Nagara Saarige), in terms of connectivity, inspite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then I think it's going to be difficult to make any movement forward.

In terms of rash & negligent driving, yes, it will be a neck to neck contest. But, that's because of the stiff competition in those cities under a fixed and generally unviable tariff regime, and inspite of BMTC's monopoly regime in Bangalore.

As for your other contentions, I expect the following extracts from the the report on ‘Bus Transport Systems’ displayed on the website of the Union Ministry of Petroleum & Natural Gas (www.petroleum.nic.in/ch_1...), should answer most.

1) Clearly, there is a strong case for promoting private enterprise in meeting transport needs in urban areas.

2) An aspect of public policy that impacts on provision and expansion of public transport either by state owned utilities or by private entrepreneurs, relates to the unviable fare structures imposed by the authority.

3) With improved efficiency, the fare structure can continue to remain low while still providing for overall viability of the operations.

And, like I had stated earlier, higher service efficiency is what is ultimately more beneficial to the common man. What is the point of having cheap fares (and, BMTC fares are not exactly cheap) if ultimately the commuter lands up having to take auto's regularly because of buses not showing up?

Well, for your information, the London bus services are over 90% privately owned and operated. Besides, while comparisons of airline services etc (catering generally to the upper classes) can be made against those of cities in advanced countries, our bus services are catering to the needs of a much poorer lot, and consequently, we have to evolve our own models. In that respect, Mangalore and Kochi can possibly provide the answers if the license-permit raaj is a bit relaxed. Tatas and Kingfisher can follow in cities like Bangalore to wean the upper classes from their cars, on usage of which curbs will have to be introduced sooner than later.  

I have written enough on the subject. Like I have said earlier, very few have contested the capacity of the private players to meet the challenges. The problem clearly is how to dismantle the present regime that's so well entrenched in the clutches of the vested interests.

Muralidhar Rao

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Naveen,

 Following the session with Prof.Ashwin, a Praja meeting was also organized.

 Is that meeans, this summary refers to a different meeting than one that was held yesteday @ IIM?

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 Naveen..thanks for putting together such a detailed post on this..guess this minutes is as detailed as it can get!

There are two main concerns which are around point 2 & 3 in your post which needs attention...

About point 2, regarding the ticket costing structure.. volvo vajras now give tickets which has details on the journey lenght in kms etc..cant we use this precise data to cost per km ticket price? This will rationalize the ticketing strucutre.

Guess Murali sir and others sure will have better workable thoughts around this..

About point 3, about the relucatnce of people to change, probably this needs a campaign from Abide to drive the message..we as Praja can aslo assist them in that..

Probably all it needs is meeting the local heads like the corporator and others to convince them of this plan. I guess their main concern will be around reliability & speed of the big 10 service and ticketing..

I am sure Prof. Ashwin can run some pilot presentations(if  possible in Kannada) to these leaders and then Abide along with institutions like Praja can spread the message! 

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Many of us came by BMTC busses. However for a person like me who last took a bus several years ago it never crossed mind to do so. I was late by 15 minutes and missed many points which Naveen’s excellent post has made up for us who were late. Thanks Mr. Naveen.

BMTC with the task of providing solutions for Bangalore’s commuters definitely needs management professionals’ help. BMLTA in fact has such qualified people in its employment. In this ABIDe initiative has come in handy, with Prof Mahesh who eminently fits the bill.

I have tried below to put some point as I gathered from the presentation:

1.      Big 10 is direction oriented system and requires bus changes

2.      There is Parallel Karnataka sarige too.

3.      The target is to reduce 12 to 15 min frequency down to 4 min for the Big-10 busses.

4.      Bunching of Big-10 busses requires higher frequency. (Why not removal of bunching?)

5.      Political aspects

a.       Big-10 is running well

b.      Reasonably predictable

c.       Huge victory

d.      Demographic change

e.       Political will required in greater measures

f.        Hard decision making is hard to come by

g.       Empathetic Middle management

h.       Strengthens BMLTA

i.         RWA interaction is vital

PSA

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Syed :

The meeting described above was with Prof.Ashwin at IIM. The praja meeting later was organized by pranav for praja members present there to discuss action items & progress.

Blrsri :

Ticket Costing - I think this can be done, but it would add expenses to operations since all bus conductors will need to be provided with automatic ticketing machines. Thus, ticket costs will go up & this may not be acceptable to a majority of the commuters using ordinary services. On the volvos, this is possible as the class of service is higher & commuters using these services are willing to pay for the additional value. Mr.Murali & others - any further inputs on this ?

People's reluctance to change - this was expected & Prof.Ashwin summed it up very well. Any change will always be opposed initially, & only when alternate system/s are actually seen working better, will the existing biases be discarded. So, the system has to work it's way through all the opposition, make inroads & prove itself competitive & better before it becomes acceptable. As you mentioned, praja can assist, but the target group/s here are those from peri-urban areas & nearby villages. These people must also be reached & I think you are correct - some promotion in kannada may be very useful.

I think Prof.Ashwin is already doing a lot ! - maybe we should chip in here & assist ABIDe in spreading the word.

Psaram42 - Thanks, sir.

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Hi,

There was one more item touched upon by Prof.Ashwin. When compared to say Chennai or Mumbai, BMTC staff were under the impression that BMTC services were as good, if not better. How was it then that in Chennai, in addition to the operation of commuter rail lines, the total commuter volume by buses were 30% higher than in Bangalore ?

The answer to this is perhaps explained by the fact that Bangalore is home to a much larger no. of wealthier people who can afford cars or 2 & 3 wheelers & do not prefer buses. Further, roads have too many intersections within short distances of one another & are thus, more suitable to result in faster commutes by smaller, more nimble private vehicles. This also explains why Bangalore now has the 2nd largest vehicle volume in the country, after Delhi.

Mumbai is also different since buses operate very efficiently as feeder services for the local trains - most people depend on trains due to very long commuting distances.

I think the feeder services can be operated between two arterial routes (serviced by Big-10s) in the periphery more efficiently than to confine them to one Big-10 route. This way, there may be better volumes & one does not need to go to the center /CBD to change again if his destination is from periphery to periphery.

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Excellent notes Naveen. Sorry, I could not make due to some personal commitments.

One thing I was always thinking was advertising. I remember when we had only Doordarshan channel, we used to get lot of social responsibility related educational advertisements / information such as crossing the railway track while train is approaching. We need to have similar advertisements broadcasted in local channels seen the most such as ETV, Udaya and TV9 in Karnataka. TV channels should be given some tax exemptions  if they broadcast traffic discipline as well as social responsibility related ads for so and so hours in their channel.

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  "...Prof. Ashwin emphasized that promotional efforts such as costly advertising & running the services for a short period with low fares were neither possible nor necessary...."

 It's really baffling that it didn't occur to either BMTC or the planners that the BMTC has the excellent resources for advertisement. It's biggest resource is buses, Bus stands etc. BMTC can make use of its buses to advertise along with hoardings at Bus stands. It may as well be that they don't need any other mode of advertisement. Also BMTC is cash rich cow. It has the capacity to spend some amount of its revenue for advertisement of its services. If it can absolve about Rs. 1 crore in pilferage and other theft, I don't understand the notion that it is not possible.

 The case of advertisement from BMTC is like:

BAGAL ME BACCHA, GALI MEIN DHINDORA.

 Would ABIDe make use of this resources?

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it was an interesting presentation, thanks naveen.  i "missed the bus", thanks to murali -sir !!

i am fairly new to this discussion, and may make a naive comment..or raise a point already discussed....but...

just from observing and experienceing  the efficiency of public transport in major cities around the world, including bombay where i grew up, an efficient train service complements the bus servicee (and vice versa) and adds tremendously to the speed and comfort of travelling around a crowded city. so once our metro is fully operational, bus routes can and should work in tandem, and that will  iron out a lot of the problems now being faced. we might do well to align the changes in  current bus routes with the metro, (if possible) so changes later are smoother.   because again there will be chaos and resistence to change, when it  eventually comes when the metro is ready.. 

its common sense that promotion and publicity goes hand in hand with anything new and  actually saves money in the long run, so its sad that bmtc doesnt see the worth in this. there are many ways to do it in a cost effective way.  again as observed abroad, well designed boards, at bustsops are a better and cheaper way to promote new routes  and inform users of the new route. these info boards should be at the origin itself. for example, right from the first busstop of the big 10 buses, the route of the ho-ho can be announced with the route maps and vise versa, the ho-ho bustops can have info of all the big 10 routes.

the london underground map for instance, is a good example of the volume of info that can be communicated in a simple well designed map. done intelliegently, graphic representations  achieve a lot. but bmtc has to apply their collective minds, and collective will.
the current sign boards at the vayu vajra bus stops , for example, are most useless and a waste of money. they could have been used effectively to give bus numbers,, timetable, routes BMTC control room no etc, but it does nothing of the sort.

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Syed, two things you mentioned above are not true

• BMTC is a cash cow - Definitely not true
• BMTC can make use of the bus stands - Not possible, however bad as it may sound, I think the bus stands are either owned by BBMP, or the PPP or private venture who paid for the bus stand and recover the cost via ads.

BMTC can advertize on their own buses, but that would limit the ads to text. I think Big10 bus themselves should carry some details of what they are.

Still, to get the message across clearly, ads would need to be run on the radio/TV/print medium.

But yeah, there is a lot to be frustrated about here. There are so many common sense things that can be done, and people at the helm know the utility of those ideas (top management isn't usually dumb), but yet, those who want to help BMTC in real and 'practical' ways have to work within the contraints of limiting things only to BMTC domain and attacking the low hanging fruits as much as possible. Words like "long term", "strategy", cooperation with other bodies" are usually a no no - thats what I get to hear and feel.

Anyway, let us keep this post for meeting report alone. I will post my take on the meeting soon.

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Prof Ashwin Mahesh seemed to suggest that companies like Infosys could perhaps run feeder services in say Electronic city to link the Hosur road Big-10 services. Now, the problem there is that if Infosys runs it exclusively for its employees, it may not be viable, and if it opens it out to the public, it would be a violation of the BMTC's monopoly regime rule in the city.

My answer to that plainly is to dismantle the monopoly rule. But, when that happens, Infosys (and even TATAs and TVS) can then run bus services right across the city - check:   http://praja.in/blog/murali772/2007/12/12/better-bussing-green-bangalore.  

All problems will then be solved within a matter of months, and the good prof can go back to where his services are best utilised. PRAJA can play the role of the official interface between the bus service providers and the public.

My father, let my city awake to that day!   

Muralidhar Rao

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Mr.Murali,

On another post about privatization, you said " There will continue to be problems. But, like the late Sri C Subramaniam had once stated, atleast these will be new problems, and not the same old ones for which we have not been able to find solutions for over half a century ".

I agree with you 100% !

So, would you not expect problems with privatization of BMTC ? At least, it has been providing services to various societal groups & is continuing to do so. Can we depend on private transport operators to do this from the word go ? I think not, unless the privatization processes evolve substantially. As of now, we are nowhere near addressing the various demands, let alone enforcing private operators to meet social concerns.

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Hi Naveen

In the more sensitive water supply case, you yourself have stated: "As long as water supply is improved & at the same costs, if not marginally higher for the improvements, why should it not be tested ? To safeguard the interests of the poorer sections, the MoU with Tatas must contain specific clauses that each km of piping will have a certain no. of public taps. If this were incorporated, where is the harm in trying to tap private capital in to the water distribution system?"

So, what is the big fear when it comes to bus transport services?

And, in bus transport services, my brief has always been for effective "competition for BMTC", and not for "privatisation of BMTC". And, if not from the word go, the private players can certainly make things happen much faster than they did with civil aviation, banking, insurance, courier services, power distribution, etc.

And, efficient operations will far more effectively address social concerns than what are being dished out by the BMTC under that guise.  

Muralidhar Rao

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On the TTMC's, Prof Ashwin Mahesh stated that the real estate element to them does not exactly help. He stated that by the time ABIDe came on the scene these had already been tendered out, and there was no going back. And, now because they are there, all buses will have to be routed through them whether that helps the main purpose or not.

On BMLTA, AM felt that the way forward is to strengthen this organisation greatly, and this is a challenge because it is not adequately empowered at present. This is leading to the various agencies (I refuse to call them stake-holders - MR) involved acting in silos.

Further, on the feeder services, the prof suggested that if PRAJA members (or the public) can come up with viable route proposals, he can possibly recommend to BMTC to operationalise them.

Here, perhaps the prof is not aware that such an attempt had already been made in Koramangala. I had initiated it during the time I was the BMTC's CCTF co-chairman. They did it only because of the pressure I was applying, and their whole approach was to prove that it was not viable, which they eventually did with great elan.

The fact of the matter however was that I had done the entire viability exercise myself, and it had shown to be very much viable, with some six mini-buses (Swaraj-Mazda type) covering entire Koramangala in three given circuits, and at a lower fare regime than that presently being followed by BMTC.

So, straight-forward approaches are not going to work. The Whitefield lot can hope to be "blessed" with one, now that R K Misra-ji has joined the ruling party. It can be numbered 1801, since there are 1800 hundreds already, and variations going past each influential PRAJA member's house can be sub-numbered from A to Z.

On autos, prof suggested that ABIDe may also consider upgrading them to NANOs by working out suitable packages.

All in all, like Pranav has stated there's a lot to be frustrated about here, particularly when you know that the solutions are so very simple, and the changes can happen in a matter of months, and at no cost to the government or the public. And, it's not as if they doubt the capacity of the private sector (the organised lot) to do it either. It is just that they do not know how to dismantle the present vested interest regime, largely also because many of them are part of it.

Well, whatever, Prof Ashwin Mahesh continues to sound very positive, and he states that he is getting strong buy-ins from BMTC and the traffic police, though it could be better from the BBMP, which also he expects will happen soon. And, he is preserving the very first tickets issued by Big-10 and KS hoping they will eventually turn into mementos denoting success. Such dedication, such commitment, and all for free! If only the state machinery responds in adequate measure, possibly soloutions can emerge this way also! Here's another small prayer for that! And, I am sure, as far as PRAJA is concerned, any support is there for his asking.
  
Muralidhar Rao

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Mr.Murali,

You mentioned competition for BMTC - this is possibly a safe way to commence a testing process, no doubt, but the authorities will not bite simply because there are enough experiences where such attempts have led to cut throat competition at the expense of users, profits being very meagre, besides causing havoc on the streets to pedestrians & other road users.

You also mentioned that private players could certainly make things happen much faster than they did with civil aviation, banking, insurance, courier services, power distribution, etc.. How can this be possible ? Does city transport not have to go through the same processes ?

I also have doubts if private operations will more effectively address social concerns, as you say. How ? A private operator is there only for the profits. So, would it not be fair to say that he will avoid spending on services that do not generate revenues ?

The fear amongst many of us, as also reaffirmed by Prof.Ashwin, is that private bus operators in this country neither have a good reputation nor do they have a sound operational history.

As I have said before, the bus services in Mangalore or Kerala are no better. At this time, BMTC is preferable & has been meeting social obligations. It is catering to various societal segments fairly well, however crude it might seem. It could of course do with improvements, but then there always is room for this - all services are subject to changes with needs & demographics changing in the city & BMTC is no exception.

People's livelihoods depend on cheap transport as they have to move about for their economic well being. So, the risks are very real, particularly with poor records of bus transport privatization.

You have still not been able to answer my earlier query - Is there any city in the world that uses private operators for city bus services in a large city, other than for BRT systems ? I am yet to see or hear of this anywhere. City transport, with meagre revenues will never attract the likes of Tatas or Kingfisher as bus services always lag way behind other more sophisticated forms of transport. Can you name one city anywhere that has such top notch operators for city bus services ?

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Murali Sir,

 What would be the best way to get our hands on the details of the TTMC that are being constructed? I am looking for more information other than the just photographs and some news clips.

I am interested in:

1. TTMC lay outs
2. Details of passenger and staff amenities
3. Security
4. Parking
5. What does it offers to BMTC, Passengers and to Bangalore.
6. Entry & Exit point designs, impact on surrounding traffic etc.

If the above information is already exists in public domain, links or directions to the source would be highly appreciated?

Syed

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Murali Sir, Naveen Avare

 The discussion is coming alive with some very good ideas. But I suggest we take a TIME-OUT.

Lets take this discussion to different level and a different platform. May I suggest that, to have a Online NET (probably SKYPE) meeting with pre-set agenda to discuss all the aspects of BMTC. We have some solid suggestions in the form of presentations, pictures etc. We can go over them item by item and see if we could get a consensus to choose 5 things that we all can join to do. There is already a team from Praja taking some baby steps to work BMTC related issues. That would be wonderful opportunity to know each other's views. Let me know if anybody is game for this.

Kindly Let us leave this thread be for aspects relating to Interaction with Prof. Mahesh. Let us dedicate this thread for meeting participants to post their experiences.

Syed

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Hi Naveen,

Item 8 in your post speaks of compensation practices followed in BMTC...

"BMTC staff earn incentives based on rider-ship & ticket sales & some routes attract higher passengers than others. Thus, there is a system to employ staff rotationally to ensure that such benefits are divided across all staff. This sometimes results in certain inefficiencies"

I believe this is quite a debatable issue and am sure we all in some way or the other been spectators of the chaos that happens on our streets.
 
Compensation to BMTC staff  dependent on passenger volumes and ticketing sales per trip fosters a competitive behaviour among staff of buses plying on roads that is often found to be cynical in nature, adding to the conjestion and putting safety of citizen travellers at stake.

I shall co-ordinate with the rest of the folks involved in the BMTC tracking project to have this item  addressed in our ongoing RTI efforts if possible

Sudheendra

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A few other  things I took away from the meeting.

a. If Praja can suggest local feeders/loops touching Big10 routes.  E.g. Jayanagar/J.P.Nagar touching BG Road or KKP Road.  Or Vijayanagar touching Magadi Road/Mysore Road. 

b. It is dawning on the powers that be that we cannot keep supporting the needs of cars and that public transport is the way forward. 

c. There will be 5 at-grade parking lots to start with near the KS routes.  Based on how well they are received more will be considered.  I might have not heard the second point too correctly.

d. He gets lots of suugestions and solutions.  Body time is at a premium.  A lot of effort has to happen before any breakthrough occurs.  80% of the time spent goes nowhere, but without that the 20% productive time won't happen. 

e.  There are opportunities to work with him and his team, but he will not support one more delegation from Praja.

Srivathsa

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yajamanre,

"..There are opportunities to work with him and his team, but he will not support one more delegation from Praja..."

 Could you or somebody would elobrate on that statement.?

Praja-BMTC team is getting prepared to start reaching out to Prof. Mahesh and understand what help he is looking forward to. Without 2-way communication, I don't know how they can reach out to Prof. Mahesh and extend the possible help he needs?

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Syed,

Best to get his e-mail via an intro from Murali-sir and communicate with him.  This discussion site might not be the best way of communicating 2-way in such matters.

The professor said that he would welcome our working with him a few hours a week (modalities can be worked out).  He currently has people working with him on this.  What he said was that we could join hands with them and add horsepower.   He however said that he will not support a second working group (e.g. as Praja) and help them establish linkages etc.  But I think he needs proper body time and not just suggestions/solutions. 

Srivathsa

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Yajamanre,

Thank you very much for the clarification. Undertsood the help context.

Syed

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