This in spite of this adverse report. Apparently, the other operators are far worse.

 

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Well adverse report indeed- r can we say media hypes again!

 Bus ramming into a vehicle or other vehicle ramming into a bus who is the sufferer? Bus will suffer only if the other vehicle so involved is also a bus or lorry-all other smaller vehicles are otherwise the sufferers in the case.

Given my personal experience, I genreally cross the road with high confidence if I spot a BMTC bus approaching at a safe distance-For I know he is one person who isnt going to increase his speed suddenly or do a wheelie!! Also I am sure he isnt going to suddenly poke his nose into the nearby lane without any prior indication

Well the "Adverse" report says 82 deaths in city were caused by accidents of BMTC buses. Well but any eye-witness who saw how all the 82 deaths hapened-did BMTC ram into someone out of the way or someone fell in the way of the bus-50% of the cases must be the 2nd one-the impatient small drivers on our city roads. By the way(This is a not to be quantified thing-a death is a death and a life is a life) what is the total number of deaths on our city roads?

Many people have seen (As far as i have noticed) BMTC as a slow moving vehicle-but many dont consider the size of the vehicle while they overtake-and worse of all overtaking from the left-everbody knows a bus has stop on the left corner of the road-then why at all overtake from the left-do they expect the bus driver to look into the rear view mirror every time they corner the bus. In these cases training and yoga for the bus drivers insnt going to help-it is the other person who requires training how not to frustrate the other drivers.

Media bias can be said to be another thing for such reports- a few weeks back a TV chanel showed a 2 wheeler driver pushed down by the back of BMTC bus-but video showed only when the driver fell-how did the 2 wheeler drive wasnt in the picture-reason?? known to them

So lets appreciate BMTC for getting this award better than the counterparts-even in land of people with eyes, some just close their eyes too rejecting the wrong peron

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@ss87  -  Don't blame the media - they are just citing police records, and comments by police authorities. And, while you may not find BMTC drivers' accident records unsatisfactory, the police chief doesn't seem to think so.

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....So goes a famous proverb. As a corollary, as long as there are humans driving vehicles on roads, there are bound to be traffic accidents !

In India, there is little regulation of people jay-walking on streets, vehicle violations, cattle & stray animals, animal-drawn carts, children at play, footpath vendors, shopkeepers, bystanders - all these pose increased dangers on roads. Any of these can cause or become victims of accidents.

Despite impressive economic growth & the resulting exponential growth of vehicles, the road infrastructure & driving conditions have remained very poor /outdated and is out of sync with modern, fast vehicles on our roads.

It is common to see people of all strata hurtling around on their wheels, with cell phones tagged to ears or tinkering with radio /CD players, even at night - a kind of multitasking that is a dangerous distraction.

Compared to this, I think BMTC drivers are a better lot & one never sees them indulging in such distractions - so, let us give due credit where needed.

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Over last 4 years (2006 is when I really got started with BMTC and things), I have witnessed 4 accidents involving BMTC buses (2 with mobikers, 1 with auto, 1 brush with a car/cab) 'live'. And have seen 5-6 imdtly after they happened (one just last week, Vajra rammed into a Swift, near Kundalahalli).

At least going by the ones I saw 'live', (except for the brush with a car/cab, so 3 out of 4) the fault was mostly not BMTC's. You all share your numbers, based what you have seen, and they won't lie.

All of Bangalore (BMTC drivers, car drivers, auto drivers etc etc) sucks at driving. Just the way you can say auto drivers are below the average standards (stand on any major road, only for 5 minutes, and watch) one has to say BMTC drivers are above the average we have set on our roads.

Not that they are all saints. Have seen some devilish ones (with Vajra as well, bad/frustrated driver and Vajra is a very bad combination). And as far as following some other norms that apply only to them (stop near a bus stand, move only after everyone is onboard) is concerned, they have to be a lot better.

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@murli 772

I dont think media go by police records-police didnt name BMTC as killer-also in one accident around 9-10 months back it was a police officer who said it might not have been the fault of BMTC-and shockingly the news channel immediately disconected the call on the live show-now what reason can be provided for the same.

All BMTC drivers cannot be supported-some rash/bad drivers are of course there. Of course I was lucky in the past 9 years of my BMTC travel not to witness a single incident let alone an accident. But have witnessed worse drivin from other road users as well in the city-and the worst being a car driver who jumped the signal at Silk board one fine evening from Hosur road side, forcing my bus to abruptly brake from turning right onto ring road and signal turning red just then extending my wait for another 5 minutes in the process my connecting bus just crossing over the signal eextending my wait there to. (Bus had around 60 passengers so around 300 minutes wasted because of the car).

As other drivers of the city you have an option to use the side roads/lanes/bye-lanes avoid signals. Travelling once on one road we skip the maximum number of signals possible. But same cannot be done by BMTC-he has sto stick to his schedule, the stops and apart from all drive on the same road atleast 3-4 times a day to and fro-and our infrastructure development adding to their woes it is high time other vehicle useres actually show some respect to the elephants of our city who carry around 60 passengers on avreage(120 in peak hours on some routes)-the driver has responsibilty much higher than everyone-safeguard the life of the people in him, outside him, around him etc etc etc. High time we actually salute them rather than critisizing them

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 I have daily commuting on Vajra from 1 yr daily and experienced only 1 rubbing of Vajra on which I was travelling with another BMTC 'Janti' resulting in breaking of our Vajra's mirror and it was the mistake of our Vajra driver who got frustated in BTM traffic while coming towards Silkboard on ORR. As soon as we crossed, he speeded up. 

Another time, I was in an ordinary bus on KG Road  BVK iyengar road junction. Signal turned green to our bus, but a biker with  pillion  came from Sagar theatre side despite of red signal to him. Driver suddenly applied brakes to save the biker and pillion,otherwise both would have died. As said by ss87, media wants to criticize by calling 'Killer BMTC'.

Once TV9 had reported 'killer trains' for Tumkur bound trains where slum dwellers often cross tracks and get killed by trains. This logic of TV9 I could not understand.

Rural Bikers migrated to Bangalore are the major victims of BMTC and this is mainly due to their 'arrogant'  and careless driving. Bikers do not monitor mirrors and for showing off style, they remove mirrors.

Driving to office and back to home itself is so painful and results in so many clashes with fellow drivers, chances of accidents. BMTC drivers have to drive 8+ hours a day taking a mamooth bus with huge load, stopping in bus stops, crawling in traffic. 5,000+ buses on road, it is difficult to have every driver equally efficient.

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@Vasanth - you have seen 1 live in 1 year. I have seen 4 in 4. Going by that alone, anyone who uses BMTC a bit regularly, should see at least 1 "live" accident in one year.

Look forward to them recounting their judgments of the live accidents they witnessed.

I may be blamed for showing empathy here, but its not for BMTC, but just about one part of their operations. Their drivers may be in need of HELP. Drive Whitefield to Banashankari up and down 4 times a day, and take a mental sanity test in the night. May be we should do an event like that someday. Replace your car with a Bus, and do this 4x2 = 8 trips 6 days a week.

Why not shift the attack from Drivers to BMTC's budget and policies for Driver side training and amenities (do you know when and where they have access to toilets) ? It could be that BMTC management isn't taking the best possible care of their drivers (training/counseling/amenities).

Doing an audit of driver management side of BMTC is one possible actionable output out of these debates.

@ss87 - about media going by numbers or data, they have a long way to go. They like to either conceal "raw data" or release it in bits and parts because selective (mis?)representations or slow release of information (at times) serves their purpose. Not that all of media does it, or all journalists do it. But I am told that many do.

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I was referring just to the Indian Express report I had provided a link to in my first post here. That report is fairly objective, and has quoted Mr Praveen Sood extensively. While expressing dis-satisfaction with the results, for the kind of efforts supposedly put in, Mr Sood has also gone to list out the externalities affecting them. So, nobody need go into a discourse on them - they are all well known.

What I am pointing out to is the stark irony of the record indicating something, and the award indicating something totally opposite.

@ ss87
the driver has responsibilty much higher than everyone - safeguard the life of the people in him, outside him, around him etc etc etc. High time we actually salute them rather than critisizing them.

Yes, that's his profession; and, when he doesn't perform responsibly enough (as indicated by the records), he is criticised, quite like every other professional who doesn't match up to the expectations.

@ SB
Why not shift the attack from Drivers to BMTC's policies and budget for Driver side training and amenities (do you know when and where they have access to toilets) ? It could be that BMTC management isn't taking the best possible care for their drivers (training/counselling/amenities).

Very true - the blame falls largely on the organisation.

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@Murli772

Very well said-thats his profession and he has responsibility to perform his profession and one who doesn't perform gets criticized. Nice point-but tell me one profession where non-professionals interfere a lot in their professionals work. He has undergone training, driving a vehicle much larger than all the others running around him and in the end getting criticized by the other persons too. He is not alone in doing this work sir. There are so many who give out their interpretation in the professions on how to carry out the work. Their work is something else too. Now don't tell me everyone who drives is not their profession. Their responsibility is much less than this professionals and who do this professional work, worse than the BMTC drivers

Other point- blame falls on the organization-very well-they have done their means and measures to reduce major things. if all the 5000+buses rammed into one vehicle everyday, probably Bangalore would have seen much traffic free and drivers would have been too very happy. At least this organization does something to prevent such things. All other un-organized vehicles do not belong to any organization, gets no training what soever, just hop onto the road, fall before another vehicle and blame it on the organized vehicle-reason?? He is huge,slow,hate him,tough to overtake,personal biases against the vehicle etc etc etc over the paper!!

Elephants entering the city is what news says-actual reality is we have penetrated into the forests. Same thing is happening around this "blue-white elephant". The other road users don't understand the plight and the situation of this professional is the main problem prevailing here. There is no point in increasing allocation only for BMTC drivers-it should me made mandatory to see that all road vehicle users follow the rules, and keep themselves stress free and main of all show a bit of humanity to other road users. Don't see the vehicle-see the human inside

Well a major point in the end-vehicles which meet with accident/scrap with BMTC generally occupy the same road as the BMTC-what to call of some rats(2-wheelers) who scrap with pedestrians after running into pedestrian space---?

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Murali,

No point in re-hashing your utter contempt for BMTC. Your love for privatization of BMTC may have merits, but this is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about award given to BMTC from the ministry of transports. The news bit is clear that BMTC is better than 'Others'. It is a relative thing and that itself speaks volumes about safety on roads from other PT systems in other parts of the country.

Your assertion seems to be on the lines of, BMTC doesn't deserve this award. OK, we can argue and counter argue on that. To puncture your balloon of privatization, one may very well ask for data on safety records of private transporters that operate in the country. Do you have any? Can we get it from some authority?

But I am sure you will agree that in all the big cities in India, the job of drivers driving the PT buses is nothing short of challenge. He needs to ensure the safety of others (private vehicle owners) and passengers in the vehicles. In doing so we do come accross fatal accidents involving different vehicles. I am sure a simple analysis of tehse fatalities would point to the systemic failures of humongous volumes. Safety on any roads is a function of many parameters and infrastructure - Road worthy vehicles, proper roads, proper signs, proper training, proper traffic enforcements and use of best safety practices by drivers, organizations, pedestrians and every body that is responsible for safety of one's life and others life. It is just not BMTC alone that is responisble for safety. We all are.

I will welcome any measure that would improve safety for myself and my family on roads, even if it is 0.1%. Don't you?

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BMTC is the only affordable mode of transport for the public. By and large the frequency and the services are much better especially on the Ring Roads.    I wish BMTC introduces mini bus services to all destinations, from all the Railway Stations and   free the railway commuters from the clutches of Auto Drivers.  

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@Syed
No point in re-hashing your utter contempt for BMTC. Your love for privatization of BMTC may have merits, but this is not what the discussion is about.

I didn't bring up these matters here. If there's a comprehension challenge, I guess it has to be addressed elsewhere. And, my issue is with monopolies, and issues arising thereof. Enough people have appreciated that, and more are beginning to, even within the government. If others want to remain stuck in their old mindsets, I myself have provided a platform for them also (here), and they may add their views there.

@ Syed & ss87
In my previous post, I had stated quite clearely that "Mr Sood has also gone to list out the externalities affecting them. So, nobody need go into a discourse on them - they are all well known". And, if you insist on further discourses, well, God be with you.

@ Raja Rao
Since you are new to PRAJA, I suggest you read this blog, as well as others associated with it, to gain a better understanding of the debates going on.
 

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Murali,

You have not answered my question. My question was to know the safety records of private busses. This is not to prove BMTC is safe or the private busses. But to know the reasons behind the fatalities from PT systems. Can we do something about it?

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If you see mangalore private buses u get the feeling of old DD channel or premier padmini. No glasses, pull down curtains. They leave bus just before a ksrtc bus and race to keep ahead, god save the people there. we can ask for bus fatalities in dakshin kannada by RTI.

Another example would be delhi bluelines?

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@Murali 772

in other areas the prviate sector entering but not in the transport sector-As far as I have used the pvt sector they have proved to be worse than the public sector enterprises atleast in India-FYI I still use the BSNL services of landline, mobile and internet because I didnt find anything else more cost effective and effeicient. Only thing lacking here is the lack of publicizing from the public sectors

Coming back to our road transport issue there was a time when BMTC acquired Pvt buses and ran them under the tag-even on loss making routes many buses ran because they got a fixed amount of revenue-generally long distance routes were taken over by the "On contract"buses- these buses werent used much but despite that they still ran on same routes not willing to switch(One route was 276H from J.P.Nagar to Vidyaranyapura via majestic)-the pvt bus driversrode these buses faster than Govt buses and lane discipline maintained was not up to mark-they just charged on the roads.the same can be spotted from them driving on the Highways too.

Fine that Mr. Sood has listed out the externalities-atleast he has accepted that there are some factors and they are trying measures to reduce the various issues-but no other driver claims responsibilty or accepts that he has done a wrong while riding on the road.What shall I tell about the person who drove on the wrong side of the side road at J.P.Nagar underpass-If BMTC mows him down BMTC is at fault is it? Or the person who crossed in the broken divider at BTM ring road-If his vehicle gets stuck there and a bus on end of the road mows him then too bus is at fault?Or idiotic person who honked behind me while walking on the footpath-he skids over a stone and falls under BMTC then too bus driver is at fault right!And ask all these people reason for doing so they either give you a frowned look or an utter stupid explanation-who is going to go around,walk over,waste fuel etc etc etc etc?

Mr. Murli-you seem to be very keen on discussing faults with the Public sector while you dont seem to provide a direct answer to the faults of pvt sector-To be frank I use BMTC/KSRTC/Punlic sector buses, have a BSNL connection of Landline, mobile and internet and prefer using the trains for travel and having my accounts in the public sector/nationalised banks-i never found any major difficulties with them which I havent found in the pvt sector undertaking-both have their faults-it mainly depends on number of people who use it and also the number of people who complain. When ever  I raise a question regarding the pvt sector you revert back to comments given in public sector-BMTC has accepted its faults and responsibilities-when are others going to do so??

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@ Syed  -  The following is what I had commented on the matter in the blog to which I had given a link in my first posting here

The major complaint against Blueline services in Delhi, as also the bus services in cities like Kochi and Mangalore (operated by private sector players), has also been rash driving, largely. A comparison of the record of the lot against BMTC's record on this factor, would make an interesting study.

I don't know of any study undertaken so far. All that I can say is that it's as challenging a job for a private sector bus driver as for a BMTC driver. And, if you want to go into a discourse on the challenges before a BMTC driver, so could you on those before the private sector driver. Further, being from the unorganised sector, resulting out of dumb the government policies, they haven't even had the benefit of the training that the BMTC drivers have had.

Also, if there has to be a meaningful debate, it'll help to try and understand clearly what is being talked about.

 

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I can't understand why this discussion has turned into a public sector vs private sector debate.

I support a private sector bus service for Bangalore because BMTC is not doing its job of last-mile connectivity, bad marketing (leading to under-utilisation), no route-rationalisation, and Kannada boards (again leads to under-utilisation).

Having said that, I feel BMTC drivers have the most stressful jobs. I recently witnessed a minor accident in a small lane in Arakere. It was very evident that the twisting narrow lane is not meant for large buses. But BMTC management insists on these large buses. These are no fault of the drivers.

BMTC drivers are doing a fine job given the constraints that the management/government imposes on them. If they get a safety award, kudos to them and I don't think anybody should grudge that.

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@ss87
in other areas the prviate sector entering but not in the transport sector

What is so sacrosanct about public bus transport services, that it should continue as a govt monopoly (to deprive villagers of a physical connectivity to the outside world - check this)? Similar was the stance of the Indian Airlines, BSNL, insurance, banking and other sector employee unions and their sympathisers, before these sectors were opened up to competition, making for a world of difference. Nobody then could have ever fathomed the difference the opening up of particularly the telecom sector made to the country's economy. If not for it, perhaps half the people even on PRAJA would have been with the naxalites. The opening up of the public bus services sector can have a similar effect on physical mobility (and without excessive burden on the planet), particularly in rural areas.

On your ode to 'public sector'

If the services provided by the public sector organisations are still usable, it is due to the fact that they have been forced to improve their services because of competition. If they had continued as monopolies, we would have remained a 'third world country' in those areas also, like we still are in bus services, railways, power supply, water supply, which remain under government monopolies.

Mr Murli-you seem to be very keen on discussing faults with the Public sector while you dont seem to provide a direct answer to the faults of pvt sector

Please be informed that I was the one who took AIRTEL to court, and won a case against them

On your comment on BMTC's contract operations

These are again BMTC operations - you need to get your funda's right.

And, rather than continuing with your discourses, if you will just stick to your "ask me" service (in which you seem to have a mastery), you'll perhaps be doing everyone a favour.


@rackstar
Provide the Mangalore operators a level playing field, and see the difference - check this

@Ashok
Yes, quite as you have stated, there has been enough debate on public vs private on PRAJA before, for any body to want to convert this also into another of those. You'll appreciate I was only commenting on the irony of the awards, even as, on the other hand, the record on the same count has shown to be unsatisfactory. Well, quite as you have stated, the driver's job is not quite the most enviable one, and BMTC management's incapacity/ incompetence doesn't make it any easier for him.

I suppose we can close the thread here, lest we be subjected to more discourses.
 

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@Murli 772

In all other sectors there werent any space constrains-thats not the case with respect to transport sector-where is the space to run the extra set of buses taht Pvt sector will get into- We have already seen the Air space and others fileld up resulting in great delays on airways, mobile network blocks on festival and new year days etc. True that opening to competition brought about the good change but the jam space is resulting everywhere. But I dont think we are in ay third world country with respect to the facilty in Railway and transport sector at present. We have got the facility of the 1st world country with the volvo and the JNNURM buses running in the city-please try travelling in them to feel the difference. And the service connectivity provided by BMTC at now is far better improved over the past 5 years-here I am referring only to transport provided by BMTC in Bangalore and not outside services provided by KSRTC where there are even Pvt players already operating their meagre services

Please be informed that I was the one who took AIRTEL to court, and won a case against them

Oh thats nice to know-I never knew it-but with respect to this blog right from the start you have seem to be accussing why BMTC got the award despite knowing that no one drives perfectly on Bangalore roads and BMTC are atleast better than any other driver in the city of Bangalore-having had a lot fo discussions on the same i dont want to repeat the same again

These are again BMTC operations - you need to get your funda's right

Only the route was a BMTC route-the driver and the vehicle were private in the case-except for conductor and revenue part no other right remained with BMTC in that regard

if you will just stick to your "ask me" service (in which you seem to have a mastery), you'll perhaps be doing everyone a favour.

Thanks for you compliment-here to I am doing a favour only sir-removing the bias towards BMTC from the minds of the people-With respect to "ask me" if anyone asks aboput the routes I can provide- but as a traveller of BMTC bus for past 10 years almost I have witnessed the driving of all vehicles on the road and the services provided by BMTC. I have used the services from morning 5 up to night 11 and havent foudn any major fault with it in the present scenario.

When MTC-Chennai, APSRTC Hyderabad can provide a good network being a monopoly and BMTC Bangalore have also improved the services and metro too taking up shortly(Metro is going to be a competitor-it is not managed by BMTC) then why again let pvt sector to congest opur roads more??

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@ ss87

But I dont think we are in ay third world country with respect to the facilty in Railway and transport sector at present. We have got the facility of the 1st world country with the volvo and the JNNURM buses running in the city-please try travelling in them to feel the difference. And the service connectivity provided by BMTC at now is far better improved over the past 5 years

Whenever I or my family members choose to take a flight, we invariably rely on the BIAL (VOLVO) service. It's a good service (But, that it's losing money is another debate). Likewise, the BIG-10 services are also good. But, here, the connectivity beyond the terminal point (Mayo Hall in the case of G-3) is the problem. And, BMTC doesn't appear to have a ready solution for that. And, the problems are many more - a few are described here.

So, it's not as if I am talking from an ivory tower or anything like that. May be, you could say that I am far more demanding than you are. And, I would like to believe that the city population is becoming increasingly so, exposed as they are to the best practices across the world. And, if the BMTC can't match upto this demand, these people will clutter up the roads with their cars, more and more. So, the objective in the demand for good services is with a view to reducing the clutter on the roads, and not vice versa. And, providing good services does not begin and end with deploying high-end vehicles. There's a lot more to it.

-here to I am doing a favour only sir-removing the bias towards BMTC from the minds of the people-

Seems almost like you are pleading! Are you by any chance, a BMTC employee? Even if that's the case, you should be supporting the opening up of the sector, because any organised private sector employer will perhaps pay you double the salary the BMTC will be paying you, going by an assessment of your capabilities based on your inputs here (And, that's a genuine compliment). But, of course, if you are part of any racketeering, and have 'other' incomes thereof (like quite many in BMTC, I am sure), then, there may be problems.

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@Murli 772

I am not a BMTC employee and related to it only as a regular passenger-I am a student for your kind information. Our original debate started with Discilpining and now has diverted to services-and please note I have never made any plea to anyone regarding utilizing the service nor was the blog started in intention to publicize BMTC services-the discussion has just gone haywaire as you have diverted it to such an extent. Regarding the services i hope you have read the last pararaph of my previous post.

I am not a non-demander-I have demanded many thing from BMTC and in some cases got them too. True that BMTC didnt introduce services in the start but then even people are ignorant about certain services-Eg: discussion last month regarding 201 routes and suffixes.We may discuss these thing in that blog.

Finding that there werent any straight forward reply for my arguements regarding BMTC getting the award I hereby conclude that BMTC very well deserved the award and it wasnt just a one eyed man in the land of blind to be a ruler but it has also all the skills and talents required for getting the award. About all the deviations that took place probably we may discuss each thing in different posts and try to talk with BMTC and sort them out.

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just gone haywaire as you have diverted it to such an extent

I diverted, or you and your co-apologists did it? Just go back and check.

discussion last month regarding 201 routes and suffixes

A good route numbering system should be self-evident - it shouldn't require a ss87 to unravel its mysteries. But, with BMTC's near 6,000 routes, it's sufficiently complicatted for a Doctoral study. So, is that what your study all about?  

I hereby conclude that BMTC very well deserved the award

May be they should recommend that you be awarded a PhD too for the on-going complicating and unravelling game between you and your most admired organisation.

You can take a horse to water, but, - - - -. I would be the happiest to end this meaningless discussion.
 

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You can take a horse to water, but, - - - -. I

Well that statement should have come from my side-was just waiting to put it at the end

A good route numbering system should be self-evident - it shouldn't require a ss87 to unravel its mysteries

It isnt a mystery at all-only thing no one actually understood it-probably they didnt want to

I would be the happiest to end this meaningless discussion.

Of course meaningless-when the other person isnt ready to accept his faults and is with a biased attitude-1st point applies here again

between you and your most admired organisation.

Admired organisation?It is just i have the knowledge and I just brought out certain facts

I diverted, or you and your co-apologists did it? Just go back and check.

It wasnt me-your answers werent direct and instead  went all around to bring in the public and private sector issues here

-Please check the posts again and my replies were based on your arguements

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Points and arguments are one thing, but this surely is not the way to indulge in debates. Taking every other discussion on BMTC to that one thing, and then getting almost personal - time has come to say that such diversions are not serving much purpose. I for one stop reading a post the moment such arguments come in, because we all know what it will lead up to.

Got a call from a few folks pointing over to this discussion, so came here to leave this comment.

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Mr Murali,

I think it's grossly out of context for you to question ss87 about his motives & credentials with terms such as 'racketeering'. I believe you need to apologize to ss87 & refrain from making such remarks in the future.

I diverted, or you and your co-apologists did it?

Who exactly did you refer to as "co-apologists" ? Going by the discussions above, you seem to say that ss87 is the aplologist and all others (SB, Syed, me, rackstar, Vasanth, RV Raja Rao & ashok_n) are "co-aplologists" since all of us have stated positives about BMTC drivers in comparison with others on the roads.

It seems that anyone disagreeing with what appears to be your negatively biased views about BMTC are "apologists", in your opinion. It would make for far better & productive discussions if such biases were removed.

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@ Naveen  -  How can what I have stated be taken as an insinuation that ss87 was into racketeering? I don't get you. And, there has been speculation in the past also amongst Prajagalu on weather ss87 was a BMTC employee. Ok - we now know better.  

And, my usage of the term 'co-apologists' here covered only those who unnecessarily divereted the discussion from the main subject, repeatedly. And, very much as I tried to end the meaningless debate, I couldn't but help rebutt some of the absurdities put forth. Whatever, I had myself decided that ss87's last post didn't merit any further response from me, and had quite decided to leave things be.

There's nothing more I wish to add (unless compelled to).
 

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